How to get more (and better) referrals without asking awkwardly

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Hello and welcome to today’s SAGA Webinar, How to get more and better referrals without asking awkwardly. I’m your host, Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance, and I’m delighted to have you all here with me today while I talk about something that I know is on the minds of a lot of agency owners as they think about how to grow their agencies.

And, so we’ll talk about how referrals can work, why often they don’t, and why there are a lot of myths surrounding them. So that’s what we’ll be diving into today. But before, before we do that, let’s go ahead and jump into a few housekeeping items that we have here, and so the first is that a replay will be available of today’s webinar.

Obviously, if you’re watching this on replay, you already know that, but if you are here with me live, then just know that you don’t have to take detailed notes because you will have access to a full recording after the fact. It should be available the next day or two. If you are here live you can use the q and a function to ask questions.

It should be at the bottom of your screen in Zoom, and if you have those questions, feel free to submit them at any time. I’ll take those questions at the end of the prepared presentation. If you’re watching on replay, you won’t have access to the live q and a, but you can send your questions to me at [email protected].

If you’re here live, you can use that as well. If you’ve got a question you want to ask that you don’t want shared publicly or perhaps you think of something after the fact You can also, participate in our free community where you can ask questions, not just of me, but also of your peers. So I’d encourage you to join that free community on the SAGA website, the SAGA website is at smallagencygrowth.com, and that’s where you can find all of the resources that I may mention today, as well as countless others that I don’t think to mention as well as ones on other topics.

So feel free to use the search engine there and find lots of things that will be helpful to you in your agency’s journey. So with all of that housekeeping out of the way, let’s go ahead and talk about what we’re gonna be covering today. And, and in particular, this is a webinar that’s gonna be useful to you if you’ve probably grown through word of mouth over the course of your agency’s initial growth.

But you feel like it’s too unpredictable and you hear all of these people telling you that you need to be focused on something other than referrals if you really want sustainable growth. At the same time, you hate the idea of being a salesperson, of doing the cold calling, the cold, emailing, all of those traditional salesy tactics that we hear about. Because you started your agency to help clients, to do the creative work that you do to help them communicate more effectively to market their businesses or organizations.

And you didn’t really want to be a full-time salesperson, and now you feel like that’s what you need to do. So we’ll talk about how referrals fit into this and can alleviate some of this burden for you.

Some of the things that we’ll be covering over the course of the next 35 or 40 minutes are why referrals are actually a very powerful growth tool, if not the most powerful growth tool, and frankly, the way that most agencies tend to grow over time.

We’ll talk about how you can generate the referrals in a more meaningful way without having to ask awkwardly, feel like you’re begging, those kinds of things. We’ll talk about how you can create additional visibility that helps lead to better fit clients, because that’s one of the real advantages we’ll explore with referrals that it really does help you to get those good fit clients that you want to have, as opposed to some of the ones that you may win through more aggressive sales tactics that turn out to be mismatched for your agency.

And then finally we’ll talk about how to activate both clients and non-clients as referral sources and really how to think much more broadly about the sources of referrals that you can receive. Because I think too often we think of it in very narrow terms, and I’ll explain how to think of it in a more expansive way that will make it easier and help you to find those best fit clients.

So let’s talk for a minute a little bit about why referrals work. And, and some of this is gonna be obvious to you, but I think it’s important that we reinforce this before we talk about why we want to be getting more of them and how we can do that. And so ultimately, referrals are a great source of new business because people are coming to you with some level of trust already because they’ve heard from someone that they trust and they know say, Hey, you should check out this agency and what they’re doing.

And so it’s going to make for better fit clients that you’re able to convert more quickly, that you’re able to convert at a higher rate, that will cost less because you’re not spending a lot of money to go out and generate a lot of cold leads that frankly, are not good fits for you. It’s also something that for those of us who hate being salesy, we can do much more authentically.

We can feel good about it. We feel like we’re being helpful and useful, to our prospective clients as opposed to feeling like we’re going out there and trying to convince them to spend their money. And I think that last piece is the most important here. It, it takes away the selling component to some degree.

And for those of you who have seen any of my talks about business development and growth within agencies generally, you’ll know that I am not a fan of a traditional sales process. I believe that agency growth is relationship driven and we need to focus on building good, strong, meaningful relationships and not focus so much on getting leads into the pipeline, moving them through the funnel. All of the traditional things that we might do if we were selling software or widgets or something like that, that’s not what we’re doing. The sales process is just the beginning of the adventure that we have. It’s not really the end process where we just get the contract signed.

So, with that, let’s talk about how referrals get a bad rap. They are disparaged by a lot of people who talk about agency growth. And some of that’s because there’s, I think, a misunderstanding of what referrals are and what they aren’t. And so when you hear someone tell you that you just can’t rely on word of mouth, you have to question that a little bit.

And it’s something that I hear a lot when folks come to me to, to start working with me on some sort of a coaching or consulting relationship. And they’ll say, I know I can’t rely just on referrals, and that’s not really true. The problem is that referrals for a lot of people are really just sitting back and waiting for the phone to ring. And this passive reliance on referrals, that is not sustainable.

That is something where unless you are incredibly lucky or incredibly famous, you’re not gonna have the phone ring enough randomly in all likelihood to be successful. And so you need to find a way to encourage your phone to ring more often. And of course, these days it’s not really your phone, it’s your email.

I’m just showing my age. And so as we think about how we can generate more referrals, that puts to lie this whole idea that you can’t rely on them because in fact, referrals are for the reasons that we’ve already outlined your best way to grow, if you can. You just need to turn them into, from being a passive referral into an intentional referral.

And I think a lot of what we do in agency world, and particularly small agencies as we struggle to grow is that we, we have to figure out how to move in general from, passivity, from inertia and switch to a more intentional approach to things. And so that’s really what we’re gonna focus on today, how we can make referrals a much more intentional piece of your business.

Because referrals fail when you are not doing it in a structured way, when you are not thinking about why you’re doing it and how you’re doing it. And so let’s look at some of those key reasons that cause most of the referral attempts that, that you’ve perhaps tried yourself or you’ve heard of others doing that, that haven’t worked and, and again, feeds this notion that you can’t rely on them.

The first is that we don’t do enough to provide context around the referrals that we’re asking for. What do I mean by that? Well, one of the things that, that I encourage you to do is to have a much more focused positioning for your agency. And this is helpful for a lot of reasons, but it really feeds into the idea of referrals. Because I can get a referral much more quickly, much more easily if I come to you and I say, look, I need to find small businesses who are in New Hampshire who are focused on health and beauty or something like that. And the more specific you can be, the easier it is for me to go through my mental Rolodex and find someone who might be a fit. If I say I’m a web development agency, or I’m a PR agency and we can help all sorts of people, I might even put a qualifier or two in there, but it’s maybe a broad one.

Maybe I, I can help, you know, any business that has at least a million dollars in annual revenue. You know, that’s just too difficult for the person you’re asking for a referral from to be able to really understand who you’re looking for.

We also don’t make referrals particularly easy because we try to launch people immediately into a sales process.

And so we typically ask for a referral, send us someone who needs help with this, and it’s something that’s a paid service of ours. And we’ll talk about how you can use other means of getting referrals. People who are being referred to you for resources or knowledge or insights, that can be a much more powerful way to get those initial introductions because you’re making it easy for the person making that referral.

And that’s why referral programs tend not to succeed when they all are all about us, when it’s about putting money in our pocket.

Referrals work when the person who’s making the referral and the person who’s receiving the referral feel like they’re getting value, they’re getting benefit out of it. And so we need to think about how we can be genuinely helpful to them. And that will, again, make those referrals more frequent and easier to come by.

We also see referral attempts fail because we’re trying too hard and we’re really, not only are we asking for people to jump into the sales process, but as soon as we get that referral, we become very aggressive in trying to get them to move forward in the sales cycle. And that’s really difficult because even though they’ve come to us with an element of trust, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re completely ready to buy from us.

And so we, we can’t assume that just because it’s a, a higher quality lead from a referral that it’s necessarily going to to jump right into action. And so we need to be careful about pushing too hard on this, or frankly, even pushing too hard on the people we’re asking for referrals from. If we really lean into people and make them feel pressured to give us a referral, that doesn’t work either.

Referral programs also tend to to fail because we focus on the financial incentive for the referrer. And so I, I mean, I’ve certainly run referral programs myself like this, where you reward the person with either a specific dollar amount or a percentage of the new contract. And while those can be effective, we need to be careful because that’s made it entirely transactional.

And we’ve moved the referral from a position of someone helping someone that they like, someone helping an agency that’s done good work for them and shifted it into it’s purely cutthroat. It’s just about the dollars and the cents. And so while I do encourage you to find ways to thank people who send referrals your way, it doesn’t always have to be through a fixed compensation program.

It doesn’t even have to be financial. It could be a nice handwritten thank you note. It could be a bottle of wine or something that, that, you know, that that person will value even more than the dollars that it costs. And so think about divorcing the referral process from a pure financial transactional arrangement.

And finally, referral attempts fail because we’re not doing enough to stay top of mind with the people we’re asking for referrals from. We simply one time come to someone and say, Hey, do you know anybody who might be able to, meet these criteria and work with my agency? No, that’s not enough. We need to be able to consistently stay top of mind ’cause they may not have a referral today, or maybe they do, but then three months from now, they may have another one, but they don’t think of us because we haven’t done enough to stay present in their mind, to stay top of mind and make sure that they are ready to refer us when the time is right.

So, so how do we think about this shift that we need to make. If we, if we can’t think about referrals as purely a sales process, how do we think about it in more of service terms, helpful terms? And I think that the first thing is really just to, to set that as your initial bar. The goal for your referral program should be being helpful to as many people as possible who are within your target market, and not focused on how many immediate leads can I generate.

As you start making that transition in thinking about how you’re measuring the success of the program, at least in the short term, it will help you to produce the long-term results. I think that’s another thing that we need to remember, not just with referrals, but with any business development tactic that we may deploy as an agency.

Most of these are not sources of overnight success or immediate results. They are things that we need to put the foundation in place and use building blocks in order to achieve the maximum effectiveness of them. And so we need to be thinking about how we’re laying this foundation and then thinking about the sales that come from it as the side effect rather than the purpose.

And so if we think more in terms of helping and providing value in the near term, sales will naturally come from that. As long as what we’re doing, the help that we’re providing, showcases our expertise and does so with folks who are potentially good fit clients for us. And if we, if we’re doing this, if we’re making this shift, instead of asking someone for a referral for something salesy and instead asking for a referral for something helpful, well people are more likely to, to reach out and talk to their connections and say, Hey, you should go to Chip for this resource or that resource. And we’ll talk more specifically about how to make that happen in just a moment.

But you really need to, to be making that shift so that it’s not about self-promotion. And instead is a, it’s about giving and helping. And you do this in part by creating resources that people want to share. And again, we’ll talk about some of the specifics, but these resources, they can be blog posts, they can be LinkedIn posts, they can be original research, they can be webinars, they can be podcasts.

All sorts of different things can be tools to use for an effective referral program that orients it itself around value rather than around immediate sales. So how do you start being a resource and, and not just any resource. We can all do that, but how do we be the right kind of resource? And so what we need to do is we, we really need to keep in mind who we’re trying to reach and, and what specific challenges they might have.

And so that sounds easy. But you really need to, to think about it in terms of your ideal client. Who are you actually going to be talking with? And, and this is one of the challenges that we often have as agencies where perhaps the decision maker has one set of concerns. They may be interested in one kind of resource or help, but the people who tend to reach out to us first on behalf of that client may have a slightly different take on things.

They may have a slightly different need. And so we need to be thinking about what we’re creating and what we’re asking for referrals to or for. In order to make sure that we’re reaching that first level connection as effectively as possible. And so if we, if we’re thinking about it in this way, then we say, okay, well what’s the problem or set of problems that most of our good clients are trying to solve?

Then you can ask, how can I create resources that are focused on that? And the idea is that you wanna become known as someone who is helpful to that kind of client. So obviously right now, SAGA is not an agency, but there’s a lot of similarities in what I do at SAGA and what you do at an agency. And so one of the things that I’ve done with SAGA is positioning it as someone, as an organization that helps small PR and marketing agency owners building the businesses that they want.

And so I create resources like this webinar that focus on the key pain points that agency owners have. Because that’s the same kind of thing that I do in my coaching and consulting work. With your agency, you need to be doing the same thing. You need to be thinking about what are you putting out there?

How can you help people solve specific problems up to that point when they could benefit from working with you more directly? Taking advantages of the expertise and resources that your agency brings to the table that can help them achieving their goals, overcoming their challenges, and taking advantage of the opportunities that present themselves.

So this means that to be a resource, you have to, to have that general overview of things and, and know generally what you’re doing, but you also have to be consistent. You have to be sharing your insights and being helpful on a regular, consistent basis. And this is where a lot of agency business development tactics fall down.

And that’s because we go out, we make a push, we start generating some leads, things are going well, but then we get busy with client work. And in a small organization, a small agency, that’s always gonna be a challenge. But it’s why we need to make sure that when we are the busiest, when we feel like we have the least time, that’s when we really need to lean into the business development activities, particularly those around referrals, because we need to make that evergreen. We need to make sure that we are getting consistent referrals on a regular basis, and we’re not just going to that well when we get desperate. When we start to see a cash flow problem, when we start to see a dip in our pipeline, that’s not the time to do referrals. You need to be focused on it on a consistent basis and putting out the resources and insights that will lead to that.

But being a resource doesn’t mean that you need to spend all of your time creating a lot of stuff. Part of it means that you’re helping others because if you help someone else, they’re much more likely to help you. So make sure that you are referring other agencies, other service providers to folks that you know, because they will be much more likely to reciprocate if you’re doing that.

But you can also do things to, for folks that you’re trying to get referrals from. Recommend their content that they’re putting out, like and reshare the things that they’re putting on LinkedIn or other social networks. Find ways to give back to your network of people without just asking for them for referrals.

Because if you’re focused on, on being helpful first and less focused on conversions and sales, as I’ve said, you’ll have a lot more success.

In addition to this, you need to make sure that you are being referral friendly. The first thing being what we talked about already, which is you need to make sure that you are sharpening your positioning, that you really are clear about who you serve, what you do, the results that you provide.

And if you can’t describe that and everyone on your team, can’t describe that in a consistent way, in a way that easily resonates with your best fit prospects. That would resonate with all of your current good clients. Then you need to focus on that first. Because if you don’t nail that, it’s really difficult to get referrals of any kind, either sales or resource driven.

But if we’re gonna lean into getting referrals for resources because we, we are being helpful and we want that kind of positioning, then we also need to be thinking about what are we putting out there? What, how can we provide things that people want to share or drive people to? This is where you start thinking about what is my particular expertise?

What can my team produce that’s not monumentally burdensome, but might be beneficial? And frankly, some of the things that I amthe biggest fan of are some of the things that you’re experiencing right here. Webinars, I think, are a great tool for many agencies. If you’re able to present on topics of the day.

You can put on webinars that are, meet the media for your sector. You can do marketing tactics that are sector driven, that are driven to your target market. Those are all the kinds of things you can be thinking about if you wanted to do a webinar. Another thing I love are podcasts where you’re doing interviews because this is a great way where you can ask people to refer potential guests for your podcast, and it’s a great way to get to know and meet more people.

But if you’re interviewing people who are also folks who are in your target market, well that’s great because now you can get those referral people are generally happy to talk on a podcast episode. Or you could, even if you don’t wanna do a recording, you could do an interview for articles that you post on your website or something like that.

But people are always happy to share their expertise. And people are always happy to refer people to be a resource who will get quoted, who will get interviewed on a podcast. And so to me that’s one of the most powerful things that you can be doing.

Another great tool to use as far as a shareable resource that you can get referrals for is original research.

So that might be survey research. It might be more focus groups style research. It could be any number of different things, but that’s a great way to get people within your network to be excited about giving you a name. Because they’re not giving you a name that you’re immediately gonna sell to.

They’re giving you a name for someone who’s got knowledge, who’s got experience, who’s got something to share with the overall community, and that will be a lot more effective for you.

In order to be referral friendly, we also need to be thinking about the timing of these requests for referrals. So that will depend on who we’re asking for referrals from.

So for example, if we’re asking for referrals from current clients, we want to be thinking about where in that stage of, of the life cycle with them do we want to ask for it? Generally, you don’t want to ask for it too soon. You don’t wanna be asking for it right after they sign the contract and before you’ve onboarded them.

Generally, you don’t want to ask during that, that peak onboarding phase where you’re busy with things. A great time to ask for referrals, for resources, or even for referrals for a more direct sales conversation, that tends to be after you’ve had a particular success with a client. We really want to think about the timing, but the timing isn’t just about existing clients.

You want to think about the timing, as far as what are people interested in right now. And so you want to be sensitive to what’s going on in the broader environment, what’s going on in the target market that you’re serving, and what are the kinds of things that people are more likely to, to send your way in terms of referrals, because it fits with what people are concerned about or interested in at the moment.

And then finally being referral friendly means that if someone does send you a referral, whether or not it turns into business, you need to make sure that you are showing your gratitude, your thanks for that effort. That might be a simple email or a comment on a social media post if someone re-shares something and, and says, go check this out.

But I’m also a huge fan of handwritten notes when you can get someone’s mailing address. Send them a handwritten note. It tends to stand out in this current environment. For people who are sending you meaningful amounts of actual prospects that turn into actual new business. Do think about more substantial thank you gifts, for them, but again, doesn’t need to be a formal financial arrangement. And in fact I’m generally more interested in finding other ways to express your gratitude.

So we’ve talked a little bit about referring using your current client base, which I think is when people think about referrals, it’s the first thing that comes to mind. How do I get my current clients to refer other people who are like them?

But I think we need to think much bigger than this. And if we’re thinking about producing resources as our key way of generating referrals, it makes it a lot easier to expand our vision and see other folks as good sources of referrals. And so we need to be thinking about the people that we’ve worked with in the past.

We need to be thinking about former clients, so looking in that rear view mirror can be really, really helpful. But we also wanna be thinking about who are the strategic partners that we work with? Are there other firms that we work with on a regular basis? Maybe we outsource a lot of work to a certain kind of firm.

We need to figure out how we can get them to funnel referrals our way. Maybe there are folks that we’ve collaborated with who we have a little bit of overlap in the services that we provide, but not a full one-to-one head, head-on competition. And so they might be good sources of referrals, particularly again, if we’re more resource driven because that looks a whole lot less threatening, but still does a lot to help generate the meaningful conversations that we need in order to grow our agencies.

But we also shouldn’t overlook peers and even friendly competitors. I think in the the agency world, we get way too wound up in, you know, being wary of anybody else who provides similar services to ours.

The reality is that because agency client relationships are often personality driven or driven by very specific aspects of each business, there are good fits and bad fits for all of us, and so even people that maybe we compete with on a regular basis, there’ll be times where they come across people who aren’t a good fit for them, but would be a good fit for us.

So we ought to be thinking about how we can build our relationships with those folks to get more referrals. And again, I don’t want to harp on this too much. No, I do want to harp on this a lot. If, if you’re getting referrals for resources, they’re much more likely to send people your way for that. So yet another benefit of more resource driven referrals versus sales driven referrals.

We also need to be thinking about as we’re creating all these resources, though, we’re gonna get a lot of people who are, they’re fans of our work. They, they’re people who regularly comment or share, they’re people who are avid readers of our newsletters or blog posts, listeners to our podcast. But maybe they’re not good fits for us.

They’re not, they’re not folks who are going to become clients themselves, but they certainly can help amplify our messages. They can get the word out to their own personal networks, who may have individuals who are good fits for us, at least, for having that initial meaningful conversation. So we shouldn’t be overlooking them, and we should make sure that as we’re putting content out, as we’re sharing podcast episodes, as we’re having webinars, we’re asking people.

Let other people who would be interested know about this resource. Tell them about it. Just as I would tell you, if you are listening to this and, and you’re getting value out of it, please do share this with other folks who may find it interesting, useful, or in some way enlightening.

Finally, I would like to, to touch on an area that I think is another largely untapped area for referrals, and that is the alumni of our agencies. And obviously as small agencies, we have many fewer alumni in all likelihood than mostlarger agencies would. Right. I mean, we just don’t have. Typically small agencies have less turnover. Obviously we have less headcount to begin with, but we shouldn’t overlook the people who used to work for us because that can be a really valuable resource.

A lot of those folks often move on as their careers progress into organizations or even other agencies that might be good fits either for direct work with us, but certainly, many of them will have the opportunity to refer people to us. And we need to to stop – too many of us feel a sense of hurt when someone leaves our agency.

The reality is it’s just a natural course of career progressions, and so we need to look at those folks, continue to stay in touch with all of those alumni of our agencies, maintain those relationships, and make sure that we are asking them to help promote and share the resources and make referrals to us as appropriate.

So. I mentioned earlier the, the importance of making sure that, that we don’t think about referrals as, as a one-way street, that we’re just out there asking, asking, asking. And so that means that we really need to think about how can we be helpful to others in this process as we’re, as we’re creating all these resources, we’re finding ways to bring people into our circle.

We need to be thinking about how we can help others by amplifying what they are doing. Because if, if we give good things, if we put out good karma, we will get good results in return. And so that means, in addition to all of the things that we’re thinking about in terms of positioning and sharing resources and asking people to send people our way, we also need to be going out of our own way in order to help others.

And so that means that when we see someone that we’d like to build a relationship with, or frankly, just someone who is within our overall network. We need to be sharing their content, highlighting the, the interesting things that they’re putting out or doing. We need to help them when they’re looking for podcast guests or they’re looking for attendees to a webinar, or they’re looking for someone to participate in a research study.

Look for those opportunities to be helpful. And particularly with social media today, it’s so easy to do that. It can be as simple as reposting to your network or posting a link if it’s not already on social media. There’s so many easy ways for us to do it. We need to make sure that we’re doing it.

We also need to make sure that we are celebrating other people when they put out a good piece of content and say, Hey, you know, well done there.

If they, if they have achieved a milestone and they post about it, make sure that we’re congratulating them. The more that we can do to make it clear that, that we’re not just in this for ourselves, we’re not just in this for our own bottom line. We are here to be helpful and part of the overall community that we exist in and that we’re serving, it will be helpful.

As I’ve said before, we need to be thinking about how we can take advantage of being a host, being someone who it convenes others, and this is a great way to amplify what other people have to say. If you are hosting in-person events or panel discussions online or in person, interviews on podcasts and such, again, webinars.

There’s all sorts of different ways that you can give back to others by giving them a forum for their own insights, for their own views, to help people become aware of their own businesses, and organizations and what they have to offer. So make sure that we’re thinking about these things strategically and, and if you have these opportunities some of it should be about inviting people in who are good prospective clients, or you have a, a sense might be good at referring potential business to you.

But you also want to just use it as a way to, to be helpful and thank those who are already being of service. Even if you have no expectation that they could become a client or even an expectation that they are likely to have someone or some group of people that they could refer to you.

By putting the spotlight on other people by, by being helpful, without an expectation of something in return. By being that resource in the community, we, we put ourselves in a position where we’re more likely to have success with our referral programs because we’ve now made this transition that we talked about at the beginning.

We’ve made this transition from being sales oriented referrals into being resource oriented referrals. By being helpful in providing value to the community first and looking at the business we generate out of it as a side effect rather than the primary purpose.

So let’s tie this up in a bow and then we’ll get to the, the q and a portion of today’s presentation.

So, I just want to close with, with reminding the you that it’s important that you use this opportunity to get yourself known for the who you serve, what you do, and as someone who is there to be genuinely helpful. When someone calls up and asks to pick your brain, say yes, be helpful. Say yes to interview requests.

Say yes to informational interviews that people may be asking for. The more ways that you can give back and be helpful, the more likely you are to get referrals in return. You need to be that trusted resource that people say, you know, you need to talk to Chip about this because he understands X, Y, or Z.

And, and that’s something that will get you those referrals much more easily than going around and saying, Hey, I’ve got three openings on my client slate next quarter. Anybody knows someone who’s interested? Right? Think about how those two different approaches resonate differently even with you as you are thinking about it today.

And the more helpful that you are, the more that you are giving back, the more that you are giving of yourself, the more referable you become. It’s so much easier for someone to send someone your way for that.

And finally, it’s not about going out and trying to, to harvest referrals or to convince people to do it.

It’s making people want to do it. It’s making it easy because you are putting out so many good resources, you’re sharing of your insights and expertise freely. Those are the kinds of people that people want to help. And so if you focus on, on those kinds of things, you will be able to transform your efforts into referrals from being something where you’re sitting back passively, waiting for the phone to ring, realizing it doesn’t work, and instead becoming proactive. Intentional and helpful.

So with that, we will draw to a close the formal presentation of today’s webinar. For those of you who are watching on Replay, this is where the replay will conclude. But if you do have questions, you can email them to me at [email protected]. Or of course you can join the SAGA community for free in order to ask questions, not just of me, but of your peers.