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How to scale your agency and avoid common obstacles

The co-hosts discuss an article that Gini wrote for Spin Sucks that looks at 6 reasons that agency owners have trouble scaling. The conversation includes lots of actionable ideas — despite Chip’s best efforts to sidetrack things as he struggles to remember high school science basics in making an analogy.

  • Reason #1: You Don’t Have a Business Plan
  • Reason #2: You Can’t Break Free from Client Work
  • Reason #3: Operating In Chaos
  • Reason #4: Freakin’ Technology! Who Can Keep Up?
  • Reason #5: Not Understanding the Whole “Measurement” Thing
  • Reason #6: You Lose Focus

Agency owners are entrepreneurs and Gini notes that tends to come with a certain level of stubbornness.  Or as Chip put it: “There’s great similarity between a toddler and an entrepreneur.”

The pair try to help owners break out of this tendency to find solutions and help them scale. As an added bonus, they talk about making beds, splitting atoms, renovating kitchens, and lots of other things to keep you entertained.



The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

CHIP: Hello, and welcome to the agency leadership podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

GINI: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

CHIP: And we are here today to talk about scaling, not the bathroom scale, you know, Thanksgiving. So we’re not we’re not talking about, you know, how much did you have for Thanksgiving and you got to get on the scale. Now this is scaling your agency business.

GINI: Yes. Growing, scaling, putting in processes that allow you to still service clients at the level that you like, but not necessarily have it be you and getting to yourself to the goals that you have created in the dream vision of what your life looks like when you own your own agency.

CHIP: And scaling matters. Because without scale, you don’t really have a business you You’re just a freelancer. Not that there’s anything wrong with being a freelancer. If you want to be a freelancer, cool solo printer. Solopreneur. Sorry. I apologize. Yeah,

GINI: I learned my lesson — solopreneur.

CHIP: See, this is me. I gotta be careful here. Everything I say is fraught with some some sort sort of political pothole or what I call land mine? Yeah. See I can’t even speak now. So yeah, sorry. Anyway, if you want to, if you if you want to be a solo, that’s great. There’s nothing wrong with it. I love solos, but and if you choose that route, you still have some scaling issues. But if you’re going to build an actual multi person business that sustains without you, that’s when you need to focus on scale big time.

GINI: Yep. Um, I think I’ve mentioned this before, but one of the very best books I’ve read on this is built to sell. And at the time, I remember thinking, well, I don’t I’m not going to sell my my agency, at least not anytime soon. So I don’t really need this. And in fact, what I discovered was the the concept is that you’re going to build something that you can sell later, but the but the idea around it is creating processes that allow your team to be able to deliver at the same level that you would and so the clients aren’t going Well, gosh, I really wish, you know, Chip for doing this work because his name is on the door, and the services significantly better and I get better results when he’s doing it, you want this the same results, the same service across the board. And to do that you have to build in structure systems and processes.

CHIP: And it’s that structure of systems and processes and more importantly, consistency that makes the difference between an average business or a struggling business and a great business. And when you pull that all together, that’s when you can have meaningful scale.

GINI: Yeah, and you know, I will be honest, that I fought that for a very long time, because when you put structure around me, I, I don’t do well. And what I discovered is, that’s why I’m the entrepreneur. Because I don’t need that. But most people and the people who work for you need to have that they need to know, this is the process. This is how I do the work. And these are the kinds of results you expect most people need that so that was a very expensive and hard lesson for me to learn. So hopefully you can take that and not spend as much time or money on learning it yourself.

CHIP: Well, but as an entrepreneur, you kind of like to learn lessons yourself. There’s there’s great similarity between being a toddler and being an entrepreneur is true. And you may be told about stick your finger in the outlet, but until you actually run an app, you’re like, well, it’s going to be different when I do it. And I think that’s part of the entrepreneurial mindset. And I remember some advice I got early on in my entrepreneurial career where someone said to me that, you know, I was the kind of person who needed someone around me who had a rubber band around me, so that who could keep me from going too far out. And, and, and giving some degree of, you know, maybe not full structure, but at least some sort of control over my desire to go in a million different directions at once. And you know, because like you I i chief structure I will say that the older I get, the more experienced I get, the more I can tell you that that I actually do benefit from structure even though it it bothers me still. I still like to bounce around like the atom and the, you know, whatever spinning thing you know?

Unknown Speaker
Yes. The electron me Adam. That’s what I was thinking and the spinning thing, the the atom and the spinning thing. Uh huh.

CHIP: Clearly, it’s been a long time since I took science.

Unknown Speaker
Well, I

CHIP: little punchy, the GDPR

GINI: I know it’s I think it’s because you forgot to post an episode a week or so ago. And it’s completely throwing you off.

CHIP: It is it is completely thrown me off. But you know, the last couple episodes, we were talking about the recession and how you need to do certain things in your business to prepare for the recession, but a lot of those are things that will help you generally in your business. And so I came across this great article on a site called spin sucks. You may have heard of it. It Yeah. And it It talks about this very scaling issue 686 reasons agency owners get stuck and can’t scale. And I read it and I said, Wow, this is this is exactly the kind of thing that is a great follow on to that recession conversation.

GINI: And yes, so I will go through the reasons. Number one, you don’t

CHIP: have for those of you listening who haven’t picked up yet Ginny wrote this. All right.

GINI: Sorry. Yes.

CHIP: In case you don’t listen to this debacle, we call a podcast every week,

GINI: if I did write the article. So Reason number one, you don’t have a business plan. Reason number two, you can’t break.

CHIP: let’s let’s let’s go one

GINI: by one. All right. I do. Yeah. Because I don’t have a plan.

CHIP: You don’t have a business plan. And and you make a great point here. It doesn’t have to be a 500 points. I talked to so many folks who say oh, I I need to put together this business. Generally, they go and get these books about writing a business plan. And they talk about all the sections they need to have and market sizing and blah, blah, blah, look, you just need to have something basic. And it’s frankly, it’s the thought process you go through building the business plan. That’s much more important. And you do need to commit to writing. But please, please, please don’t overthink it. Otherwise, that will become your barrier to scaling.

GINI: Yeah, and one of the very best open a book, one of the very best books I’ve read on this is traction, which is the EOS system. And it’s literally two pages. It’s you know, looking at your mission and your vision, vision, your core values, but it also and so from a visionary standpoint, and helps you look for like 10 years from now what does this agency look like? But it also helps you think through challenges that may get in your way of getting you’re reaching your goals, it helps you set your goals, and it helps you figure out what the benchmarks are to to have success. Super easy read, I go back to it every single year as I do my own planning and Some things I change some things I update, you know, the challenges always always change and some of its external, some of its, you know, stuff that we can control. But the the whole idea is that you really want to, I think you’re right have the thought that just take the time to think it through and figure out what it is that you want to do next year, and how you’re going to get there.

CHIP: Right, that’s, that’s the key set, set that target in the future that you know, your North Star, this is, this is where you’re headed, and then map out that at least the basic brushstrokes of how to get from here to there. Because if you don’t have that, you then then you will be the electrons spinning in the atom. And you won’t get the Nobel Prize for it. You’ll just have an unscalable business,

GINI: not the atom spinning in the spinning thing.

CHIP: No, no, I I’ve got a little smarter in the last five minutes.

GINI: Yes, so it doesn’t have to be something that you create that’s you know, 40 pages and then you start from the door. You never Look at again, it’s two pages. It’s top line, make sure it’s realistic. I have a dear client who is a six figure business and he wants to be mid some seven figures by next year. But it’s a very big leap. So as I started to challenge him on how he was going to get there, he didn’t really have any answers. He just wanted to shoot for the sky. So let’s make sure that it’s your it’s realistic. It can be aggressive, but it also can’t be so far out of the sphere of things that you’re after your first quarter, you’re like, yeah, this is just not going to happen. So make sure it’s realistic and aggressive.

CHIP: And that brings up a great sidebar. And maybe this should become an episode at some point as well, where we, we talked about doing financial projections. But But when you’re doing financial projections, don’t just do top line. You have to figure out what are the components that get you there? Yes. Because Because so often I talked to people Oh, yeah, you know, this is the number I’m going to hit next year night. Okay, well, okay, if you’re going to get there, how many how many new accounts Do you have to sell? What does your you know, average account size look like to get there? What does it mean staff wise, you actually need to walk through those steps and say, is that realistic? Because, and you also have to keep in mind, and one of the biggest problems I see when people do these projections is they say, Well, I can add 10 new clients next year, but then then they put a full year’s worth of revenue for all 10 clients, right in next year. Yeah. And that’s what you’re not going to sign them all up on December 31. They start paying on January one, they’re going to come staggered. So you actually should have a spreadsheet to map it out. But maybe as we look ahead to 2020, we can we can have a planning show, we can talk about that. But when you’re working on your business plan, make sure you go through that thought process and make sure that that it’s as you said, with your client, that it’s that you can come with come up with a logical explanation of how you can actually achieve that goal.

GINI: Yeah, and as you’re thinking about it to us, let’s say that you say okay, I want to do a million dollars next year and to get there. I need three $30,000 a month clients, okay to that will get you there. But if they all sign up December 31, to your point. But what does that look like? What is the $30,000 a month client look like? What what are they getting? Where are you finding those clients? What’s your new business process? Or the you know, how are you going to put those people into the pipeline? How are you going to nurture them? It’s not just a, I want to get 330 thousand dollar a month clients, but what’s the process to get to help you get there?

CHIP: Right. And of course, that’s much more reasonable if you already have 25 $30,000 a month clients, if you sit if you have only $3,000 a month clients, and you say you’re going to get three at 30. Okay, I mean, even let’s assume

GINI: that I had to say go for it. But But let’s

CHIP: let’s assume you can even win that business, how you’re going to service it because the way you serve us to $30,000 a month account is way different than the server 3000. Or at least it should be Yes, and maybe that’s actually a good segue to Reason number two,

GINI: you can’t break free from client work.

CHIP: Client. Yep. If you’re the owner, and or executive and you’re only focused on client work, you will never have a scalable business simply not possible. It’s not possible.

GINI: Yeah. And trust me, I have tried, but you cannot scale time. I’ve also tried that it doesn’t work. So you have to figure out where your core capabilities and strengths are and where your weaknesses are, and then hire people for your weaknesses so that you can break away what one of the things I will I will admit this out loud. One of my goals a few years ago was to have clients say to me, yeah, we don’t need you in the room. What I will admit out loud is that’s a lot harder to take than you anticipate. I reached that goal. And then I was like, No one needs me. And it’s, it’s a little bit of a blow to your ego is Hey, much as I hate to admit that it is, and so you also have to be prepared for, okay, what am I going to focus on? When I reached the goal of clients saying to me, yeah, I don’t need you there, your team’s fine. Because if you do this correctly, they will say that and it will be a blow to your ego. But what are you going to do for yourself on the back end to make sure that you’re not as I would call it, pigeon dropping into meetings or pigeon dropping into your your team to assert your wisdom when they don’t need you.

CHIP: And you also have to accept that your team is never going to do it exactly the same way that you do it. And, and in fact, in your mind, at least that will mean that they are not doing it as well as you would do it. And the reality is, maybe they’re not maybe you are actually executing better but but are they executing well enough, right? Because it’s if we try to all be perfect every time we we try to have everybody on our team be perfect and be exact models ourselves. That is not scalable. doesn’t work. And in fact your employees may well have some ideas of how to do things that go figure might be better.

GINI: might be better. Yes.

CHIP: Yeah, I haven’t seen when I got 40 plus years of course. Correct. So

GINI: when I got married my mom said to me, it doesn’t matter how he makes the bed. It matters that he made the bed and I remember thinking of the time like what the heck does that mean but that’s the the idea here it doesn’t matter if they’re doing it your way it’s the it What matters is that they’re doing it and the clients happy. And no, my husband does not make the bed as well as I do. But he makes the bed so I don’t say I might rearrange a few things but with without him knowing but yeah, well

CHIP: moving away from the making the bed. No good place to take this. So you know, but I think the the other thing that you do have to keep an eye on is to make sure that they’re being at least reasonably efficient. about it, because you know that this is one of those things where you go to the opposite extreme, which is you just dump it all on the team say go at it, and maybe they get the job done, but it’s taking them 10 times as long. So, you know, you need to make sure that you’re giving them enough guidance and enough education and training that they can, you know, be pretty efficient, as well as effective because clients don’t care how much time they’re spending on it as long as they’re getting what they want. But you as the owner need to care about the efficiency as well.

GINI: Yeah, absolutely. And then Reason number three, which leads into this is operating in chaos, kinda like the shy will, right? So yes, yes, definitely. Especially this episode right here. Definitely. You’re apparently never

CHIP: going to be able to scale this podcast because it is just chaos.

GINI: But at least we figured out the atom issues.

CHIP: Well, yeah. And I was going on the last one, I was going to talk about how the spinning thing has to like spin out of the atom now, because that’s the getting out of the client service. And so that we’ve got what does that nuclear occasion, I don’t know. Anyway, I’ve just been inspired by the Nobel Prize and knowledge that we’ve been having. And so I’m in that physics mindset.

GINI: So operating in chaos, and this this is I, this is one thing that has that has killed our growth with my agency. And it has caused us to plateau not once, not twice, but three times. Because this apparently I’m very stubborn. And this has been a very hard lesson for me to learn. But the challenges and I think that lots of type A, for entrepreneurs who likes to control things have this challenge, which is just give it to me, I’ll just do it myself. It’ll be easier. And then you’re stuck in this area of chaos because you have a team that you don’t trust to do it and you haven’t taken the time to create systems and a process so that they can be successful. So everything comes back to you and you can’t do anything with that.

CHIP: I never would have had you pegged as stubborn That was I know, I’ve discovered something new about my co host today. But yeah, sorry. But yeah, I mean, chaos is really it really is a killer. And it, it is, as you said, you know, coming up with systems and processes, that that’s how you, you structure is what helps prevent chaos from taking hold. It doesn’t mean that you’ll get all of the chaos out of there. I mean, agency life is about controlled chaos. You just need to make sure that it is controlled. That’s the key. You’ll never eliminate it all together, though. So don’t don’t sit there and think you’re going to fully eliminate it. You just you’ve got to keep it to a manageable level. Yeah, and I think the the control pieces is very, that’s exactly right, because it will be chaotic. It is chaotic. But when expectations aren’t clear morale drops, and when morale drops, you start losing your team and that’s not what you want, either. morale is probably the thing that destroys more agencies than anything else. Because, you know, we, every agency owner says, Oh, you know, it’s all about my, my team. It’s all about the people. And, you know, the problem is that some owners are just paying lip service to that concept. And and you really have to take it to heart because you are fundamentally building a business in all likelihood that the only real capital that you’re developing is that team. And so if you are not nurturing it and focused on it, you’re not going to be able to scale.

GINI: Totally, totally right. Reason number four is technology. The shiny pretty penny, either you’re in one of two camps, either you’re in the camp of, Oh, I gotta figure this out. And I got to do this and oh, there’s a new social media and I got to try this and I got to do that. Or you’re in the camp of, there’s another new thing I’m supposed to figure out but technology overall tends to help tends to create loss of focus. And loss of focus creates chaos and you not being able to break free from client work. It gets you off of your business plan, it takes you away from strategy. So you have to continue to say okay, what makes sense for the business, what makes sense for our clients and what makes sense for new business.

CHIP: And when it comes to technology, there aren’t very many stragglers in the agency space. You You either have the folks were they’re attracted to every shiny new object, they go out and they subscribe to every SAS platform they can find. They’ve maybe got five different CRM programs because Oh, look at this one. This one was cool today and that one’s cool today and I’ll keep using this for this and that for that and, and then I’ve got Zapier and I’ve got if this the Matt and I, and it’s all talking to each other and all of a sudden you’re spending your whole day just managing your tech stack and frankly, paying for it to We’ve talked about before, this is a great way for you to bleed cash, because you pay for all sorts of stuff you don’t need. Or, as is very common still in the PR agency space, you you have people who are maybe not completely technophobic, but they they’re not really embracing technology to use it as a tool to help scale. I mean, I, I remain stunned by the number of agency owners that I talked to who want to use a traditional phone because they’re not really comfortable using a headset on their computer to use zoom, or, oh, yes, that that it is, this is this is alive and well. This is alive and well. I mean, I, in the podcast interviews that I do, there are some folks who just they they will only use a telephone could do the podcast and we get better quality. If we’ll just use a headset. I don’t have one. Okay. Now, sometimes sometimes I will do podcast interviews by phone because it’s just it’s more convenient. For whatever reason, if I’m trying to catch someone who’s maybe in a hotel room, and maybe there’s an issue with so I’m not saying That’s for sure. You know, just so if you listen to my podcast, and if you hear someone on the phone, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they were one of the ones who didn’t have a headset. But guess what? Some of them don’t have headsets, which is shocking. Shocking.

GINI: Doesn’t every phone come with a headset? on that, no. Let’s talk about Reason number five, not understanding the whole measurement thing

CHIP: near and dear to my heart as someone who spent decades on the monitoring and measurement space.

GINI: Yes, as someone who has done that, and is somebody who has run their own business, let’s talk metrics.

CHIP: And it is it’s twofold. So that it’s metrics to be able to explain what it is that you’re doing for your clients. But it’s also measuring what you’re doing as a business and it so so it’s two distinct buckets of measurement and you need to get both right in order to scale effectively.

GINI: Yes, and which goes back to Reason number one, which is you don’t have a business plan you have to add in the business. works in the metrics for your own business in order to be able to scale, but also be able to translate that to clients so that you can prove that your the work that you’re doing is an investment and not an expense. And you can continue to do work with clients and maybe go from $3,000 a month to $30,000 a month.

CHIP: And it’s not a goal if it’s not measurable,

GINI: right? No, it is not. It has to have

CHIP: to be that way. If you can’t measure it, then it’s a feeling I mean, heck, you you can even they measured her scores on ice skating, I still don’t understand

Unknown Speaker
that. Right? Yeah.

CHIP: Yes, but they’ve managed to come up with something at least. And so you need to be able to do the same thing with with all of your goals as an agency, but particularly with all the data that’s available now. It’s it’s really inexcusable, not to have some sort of measurement system in place for the work that you’re doing and using that to communicate the value to your clients as well so that they understand. And particularly this goes back to the recession conversation we’re having, as we’re looking forward to Looking ahead, not looking forward. Looking ahead to the potential for recession, you really need to be able to demonstrate the value of what you’re doing and measurement really helps in that regard.

GINI: Yes, please, please do that. Please. This is my we’ve talked about it. This is the bane of my existence. Please measure things please please please please please

CHIP: measure twice cut once as they say on this old house. That

GINI: is what they say on this old house. Sometimes you have to measure more than twice as I’ve learned in my kitchen remodel.

CHIP: Which brings us to Reason number six. Which in addition to the show being addition to the show being we are apparently demonstrating recent number six to a tee, we lose focus. I mean we have talked about Adams and beds and your kitchen and we have we have we are so far off the rails Here, but but it’s a good one to button it up on because, well, I mean, that focus is, you know, we joke about it here on this episode. And while we’ve made it around, we actually have had focus because we’ve worked off of this post. If we didn’t have this post, I really fear where this episode might have gone. Yeah, I’m not

GINI: sure where it would have gone.

CHIP: So So having that structure in place has helped us on this episode, but talk a little bit about focus from an agency business perspective.

GINI: Yeah. And actually, this came from Scott Hepburn in a comment he left me on something else. But he said, You know, one another reason agencies struggle to scale is that they lose focus. And so I think that we’ve all experienced this when you’re chasing revenue, we are tempted and sometimes do cast a wider net. And so we deviate from our best fit clients and start to bring in clients that may or may not be great for the agency or for our expertise, but we do it because we’re chasing that revenue number instead of saying okay, we only We work with these types of organizations, and this is what we charge and we’re not going to deviate from it. So we definitely I think we are all guilty of that, where we lose focus from our main core expertise and the best fit or ideal clients in order to reach some shiny revenue number goal. It’s not just unfortunately, it’s not just finding a focus, it’s finding the right focus. Correct. And this, I think, is an area where we’re some business owners lose track. And so they say, Okay, well, you know, I’ve decided that I’m going to focus my activities on these particular target clients, I’m going to focus on this particular technique, but it goes back to things like measurement, you know, if you’re not, if you’re not tracking it and making sure that it’s working, you know, I could say, Okay, I’m going to focus on Tick Tock as my business development

CHIP: platform for 2020. But, you know, chances are, that’s not going to work for me. I mean, I could be wrong. It might, but but if I were sitting here and predicting I would probably predict that it wouldn’t. And so if that was my focus, that would be the wrong focus. Similarly, I’ve seen some agency owners who say, Okay, well, this is this is my ideal client, but it’s defined so narrowly, that you know that there’s very few clients that they can actually get that match that criteria. So you can cast the net too wide. But if you if you make it too narrow, then you’ve made your, your Hill very difficult to climb.

GINI: Yes, indeed, it is sometimes like pushing a boulder up a mountain. There’s no reason for that. There’s no reason for that at all. I have a very wise friend who said to me just a week ago, write down the things that you enjoy doing and that are easy for you, and then find clients that fit that. And I think that was very sage advice.

CHIP: But that’s basically how I got through college. I I took classes

GINI: I took underwater basket weaving, I took dance Those Those are my tape science because

CHIP: spinning whirling thing Yeah, basket weaving and dance I would not have been. No, they’re fun or easy for me. And I don’t think anybody ever wants to see me do either one of those. But, but no, I mean it, you know, in all seriousness, when I was in school I focused on taking classes that I knew I was good at and that I knew I was going to enjoy. And and it’s it is the same thing you know, if you’re going to find if you’re going to find happiness in your business, and let’s face it, you want to make money, but you ought to be happy to. I know plenty of people who make a lot of money and are miserable at what they’re doing. Why? Why? Because if you own your own business in particular, there’s no excuse for that because you can tailor the business to do what you want to do what you are good at. Surround yourself with people that you enjoy working with. And oh, by the way, make money too. And so you need to bring those all together in order for it all make sense?

GINI: Yes. You need to be happy first, and the money will come later. Or at least side by side. Let’s go side by side. I mean, I, you know, I’m still a capitalist here. Stay happy first happiness first. Okay, and then a little step behind the microphone. But you mean you’re right you can make on some money and not be happy. Yeah. Yeah.

CHIP: Yeah, I think it but I think it’s like it’s like an electrons width apart I, you know, I would agree that the money comes but just an electrons with behind happy

GINI: right I’m okay with that capital Yes.

CHIP: Okay, excellent. And of course if you need help with that you very helpfully in your article point out that this is something that you can help with right.

GINI: Well, I think both of us can help with that. I mean, one of the things you know, you look at the top performing human beings in this world athletes, CEOs of large corporations, musicians, like Any anybody who’s at the top of their game, every single one of those people has a coach or a group of coaches. And I think that’s the one thing that we tend to forget is that we are we think of ourselves as the experts. And we have to be the smartest person in the room. And because of that, it’s very lonely at the top. And that’s a really real phrase, because it is you don’t have family or friends who understand what you’re going through. And you can’t talk to your employees about the thing about your challenges. So how do you handle that? And one of the ways you can handle that is by hiring a coach and investing in yourself and working through that because a coach is going to see things at a very high level that you won’t see because you’re stuck in the day to day doing grinding it out every day, but a coach will help you look at it and say, Okay, what about this and what about that, and have you tried this and have you tried that and suddenly, you’re working with somebody or a group of people that allow you to start to see things that differently and handle your challenges in a way that that allows you to break through them and have success.

CHIP: It goes back to you know, pushing that boulder up the hill. If you’re going to push the boulder up the hill, it’s best to have someone helping you do it. Yes. But now in an ideal world, you just pay someone else to push the boulder uphill. Hopefully they’ve got a nice, you know, front end loader or something so that you know, they just pick it up and but the but the reality is, you know whether whether you have a coach, a consultant and advisor, a mentor, you need somebody when you’re running a business, that that will help you get that additional perspective and help to guide you. So I think it’s it’s incredibly valuable to find that kind of support so that you aren’t just in that lonely position that it’s so easy to go into as an agency.

GINI: I have three different coaches. I have one for cycling, I have one for business, and I have one for helping me figure out how to sell informational products. So it’s a There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s not saying that you’re weak. It’s, it’s if anything, it’s showing that you have an immense amount of pride in in yourself and your own professional development because it allows you to scale at a at a rate that you wouldn’t be able to do on your own.

CHIP: Do they all encourage you to pedal harder?

GINI: Yes. My cycling coach is the only one who yells obscenities at me though, so that’s good.

CHIP: That’s it, that’s a different technique. You know, maybe maybe I’ll adopt that. Maybe that’ll be my, my style with clients. And I will I will simply yell profanities. Because why not? Right. Yeah. I mean, it works on the bike. So it might work. I mean, I swear back at him, but I do what He tells me to So on that note, we hope that you are not listening to this and swearing at us but guess what, if you are it’s a one way street, we can’t hear you. That is the beauty of podcast. You listen to us. We don’t listen to you, but we would love to get your feedback. And if it happens to be a profanity or obscenity, I’m so sorry. But send it our way. We’re always we’re always looking for that feedback so that we can make this show as good as we can, even though we know that’s probably not all that good.

GINI: I don’t know, I think it’s pretty good.

CHIP: I, you know, probably I’m being a little too self deprecating there. I I do think there’s some decent content on this show from time to time. And on that note, we’ll wrap up this episode and put you out of your misery. Take these six ideas, though, and apply them to your own business and you will have a much more scalable business in 2020. And so with that, I’m Chip Griffin.

GINI: I’m Gini Dietrich.

CHIP: and it depends

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The Hosts

Chip Griffin is the founder of the Small Agency Growth Alliance (SAGA) where he helps PR & marketing agency owners build the businesses that they want to own. He brings more than two decades of experience as an agency executive and entrepreneur to share the wisdom of his success and lessons of his failures. Follow him on Twitter at @ChipGriffin.


Gini Dietrich is the founder and CEO of Arment Dietrich, an integrated marketing communications firm. She is the author of Spin Sucks, the lead blogger at Spin Sucks, and the host of Spin Sucks the podcast. She also is co-author of Marketing in the Round and co-host of Inside PR. Follow her on Twitter at @GiniDietrich.

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