Evolve your agency to find market fit

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Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Small Agency Talk Show. I’m your host, Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance, and I am delighted to have with me today a frequent co panelist, a strong advocate of profitability in the agency space, and all sorts of other things agency related, Marcel Petipas from Parakeeto.

Welcome to the show, Marcel.

Marcel Petitpas: Thanks, Chip. It’s always great to be here and get to spend some time with you.

Chip Griffin: It is great to have you here. It’s, it’s Friday. It’s a beautiful fall day here in New Hampshire. I, I understand that, that you’ve had a little foul weather in your neck of the woods here over the last week or so.

But hopefully things are starting to look up.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah, it’s a beautiful day here. Great day for cleaning up, down trees after a hurricane. And, yeah, like I was saying earlier, I feel for anyone in Florida right now, we got hit pretty hard, but, what they’re going through is just incredible.

Chip Griffin: And, and for those who don’t know, Marcel is up in Prince Edward Island, Canada.

So. Not the hurricane capital of the world like the, the southern part of the United States may be. But they did get hit pretty bad last week, but obviously, you know, hearts and minds of everybody in Florida and, and what they’re going through today. Hmm. All right. So. Let’s… I don’t know. Let’s start talking about agencies.

Well, actually, before we do that, why don’t, why don’t you share a little bit of your background for anyone who has not met you on this show or elsewhere before Marcel?

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. I’m Marcel. I’m the CEO of a company called Parakeeto, and I’m widely known as the agency profitability guy. And what we do at Parakeeto is help agencies measure, as well as improve their profitability through a lot of the more timely and precise non-financial metrics that they’re probably having trouble measuring in the business. So historically used to look at your financial statements to kinda get a sense of how healthy the business is. In today’s times, that’s usually too slow and too broad to really give you valuable information. So we help you answer questions like, you know, are we making money on specific types of projects, services, clients?

Like really analyzing that kind of stuff. Utilization, capacity forecasting, and all of those conversations you’re having on a regular basis around, you know, can we take on work? What kind of work should we take on? What should we price this stuff at? And all those more frequent indicators of your performance.

So that’s what we do.

Chip Griffin: That’s great.

And it’s a, it’s a great segue to today’s topic because all of those, those indicators are driven at least in part by how well you can position your agency, how well you can communicate your value proposition, and, and this is something that for most agencies will evolve over time.

And one of the things we were talking about in the pre-show is, is how that’s evolved for your own business in serving agencies over time. And so I thought it would be good to talk a little bit about your experience because I think it serves any professional services firm well, to be thinking about how their positioned within the marketplace, who your ideal clients are, what your value proposition is, and, and too often what I hear from agencies, in fact I heard it from an agency owner earlier this week, a description that that basically amounts to if the check clears, I’ll work for them.

That’s not really the, the best way to position your agency. It’s not a good way to drive profitability by creating repeatable, effective processes that you know will produce results. So let’s talk about how Parakeeto has evolved over the past few years to get to where you are today and, and the position that you’re in to really help agencies.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. And it’s been, it’s been quite the journey and so many mistakes really, that we’ve made along the way on the route to getting to what I think is an incredibly powerful and unique thing that we do now. But it all starts with, I have a, we’ll start with kind of the framework of how I think about this, and then we could talk through how I messed this up along with my team for three years or so.

So from my perspective, It has to start with a problem. I had a conversation recently with an entrepreneur that was, we’re talking about value and their value proposition, and they were really thinking about it in terms of like their features and their benefits and the services that they offered. And I had to stop him and say, What’s the problem?

Right? Because cause all… anchors, the problem exists in the context of a problem. So we had the insight very early on and the problem that we’ve been trying to solve has been the same from the beginning. I think that’s the reason we’re still around and the reason we’re still alive, because we knew the problem is as an agency it’s hard to answer the question data and to measure this stuff.

And it’s hard for all kinds of reasons and we have very point of view on the market and how that shifted. Okay, I think I’m back. But that was the saving grace. So it started with the problem. We knew the problem was this measurement thing in agency. Then it was about identifying what is our point of view on how this is gonna be solved.

And I think that was one of the things that took us a while to figure out. And one of the mistakes that we made early on was placing an arbitrary constraint on the business of saying we have to be a software company. So for the first three years, software was the hammer. And you know, we were basically trying to find the right nail.

And that is not a very good strategy for finding product market fit as it were. Or really narrowing in on like, how do we solve this problem in a way that actually gets the client the outcome that they want and is compelling and, and convinces them that they, they’re actually going to get the outcome because that the first product is the sale and the sales pitch, of course.

And we are having a lot of trouble convincing clients that the software we were building was gonna get them to the outcome that they wanted to get to. So that, that was kind of our first stumbling block, was, I think not approaching the product side in the right way and placing constraints that were very much arbitrary on that process of trying to find the right product.

Chip Griffin: Well, and, and I love the, the focus on starting with the problem and making sure that you can explain the problem that you’re solving and that what you’re doing actually does solve that problem. Not just that you’re claiming it, but that it actually does that. Yeah. And I should say you know, for folks who are, are listening in here, Marcel is working off of a cell phone connection.

So his audio occasionally is blipping just briefly. It’s still completely understandable. So, you know, we’re, we’re gonna continue to move forward here, but if you hear that you know, because of the, the hurricane in his neck of the woods the internet is still not back and functioning. So we appreciate you using the cell phone connection for this, but I just wanted to cover that since Yeah.

You know, that, that, that may be the elephant in the room. If someone says, huh wow, why did that just hiccup for a second? But, Very brief anyway. So starting with the problem, and, and this is something that I see a lot of agencies really struggle with, particularly as they listen to advice from myself and others.

It’s, it’s something that my co-host on the Agency Leadership Podcast, Gini Dietrich, is a huge proponent of, which is multiple revenue streams. Mm-hmm. . And so, you know, a lot of agencies say, Oh, you know, we, we can’t just be trading time for money, We’ve gotta have these other revenue streams. And so they, they say, Okay, I’m going to have this revenue stream, but they’re not saying, How does this solve a problem?

How does this mesh with everything else that I’m doing? And if you’re not doing that, first of all, you’re doing yourself a disservice. Because I’ve seen a lot of agencies who now, instead of finding complimentary revenue streams, they, they’re divergent ones. Yeah. And so now you’re effectively running two different businesses under the same umbrella, which is insanely difficult. Trust me, I’ve tried it, Like you said before, I’ve made a lot of mistakes over the years. Frankly, it’s, it’s why I can do what I do now because I can just tell you all the things that I screwed up. I mean, you learn so much more from failure than you do from success. And so, so listen to me when I tell you you don’t want to do that.

You want to find complementary solutions to problems that actually exist in the real world. And so I would encourage folks to start with that point and understand how are their services being leveraged by their clients. What results are they actually producing? Not, not what pretty charts and graphs you can put in your weekly, monthly, or quarterly reports to clients.

That stuff doesn’t matter. What’s the client actually trying to achieve and can you help them get there? .

Marcel Petitpas: Yep. So there’s two things I want to touch on, and then I think there’s a really nice segue that you’ve, you’ve set up here and inadvertently for the next thing that I, that was part of our story.

Chip Griffin: How do you know it wasn’t intentional? Come on, give me a little credit. No, I’m sure it was completely inadvertent. I stumble across a good idea every now and then.

Marcel Petitpas: No, I … and I say this Chip because this is true about you and I is we just think in such the same way, know that this is where I wanted to go, but you went there already because we’re on the same wavelength.

That’s what I’m really trying to say here. So you mentioned something which was around yeah, the importance of picking the problem and how products and stuff stack on top of that. And I think that that’s really key, when we think about niching and niching down and finding your focus, which is very hot topic right now in the agency space, but I think what everybody gets wrong is they think about it in a mechanical way where they think niching means a specific service or we have to pick a specific vertical.

And really what it means is we have to pick a problem. Then we have to just be honest with ourselves about what is required to solve that problem in a great way, and that could be a whole bunch of different services stacked on top of each other. It could be attacking multiple verticals that all experience this problem.

That stuff is all secondary. The primary thing that I think a lot of people miss is not getting clear about the problem to your point. So what that leads to next for us was this, what I call the solution point of view. So before we get into product, I think that there’s a middle layer which is agreeing on what is the criteria for how this problem should be solved in order to do it in the best way or in order to get the right outcome. And this is criteria that exists independent of your solution and really describes the criteria for how do we get to that outcome. So for example, I’ll use fitness. Fitness is just such an easy, such an easy example for these kind of product things.

But it’s like, okay, you want to you know, reach your peak performance in a certain sport. Well, what do you need to have in order to do that? Well, you might develop a framework. It’s like, well, you need to have the right diet protocol. You need to have the right training protocol, and then you need to have the right skill development protocol.

So you have like the nutrition, the strength and the skill. And if you have those three things, then you’re going to, you know, reach your peak performance in your sport. And then once you agree on that criteria, this is really important. I think it’s important for the sales conversation as well, because it does two things.

It gets you and the client on the same wavelength about agreeing to the criteria. These are the things that you need in order to be successful. Do you agree with this? Yep, totally. You could even do an assessment with them. You know, where are you weak, where are you struggling in these things? And then you have the framework to say, What does our product need to do?

What does our service need to do, right? What do we need to be able to deliver to the client in order to reach that outcome? And I think that three step framework is a really important one when it comes to getting out to the product. And what we kind of failed to do was develop a strong solution point of view, and therefore we were directionless when it came to product and we just kept missing the mark on product and we kept creating operational drag, which is another thing that you brought up. Building things that were slow to iterate, building too many different things, and just creating all of this friction between getting feedback from the market that what we were doing wasn’t working and changing it. We overengineered a whole bunch of stuff, so changing things was slow, and that ultimately slowed our speed to which we were able to find product, market fit and get to the right place.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and, and I, I, I love that you talk about, you know that solution mindset because a lot of times I see agencies who are really enamored with what you can do with a particular platform or technology or tactic, but not in terms of what the actual outcome is. In other words, what’s the solution from it? But, but hey, we can do this cool stuff on TikTok or we can do this cool stuff on, you know, whatever the new hot thing is of the day.

And that’s not really the way that you want to think about it. You really need to think about. You know, how that solution contributes to the, the overall efforts that your client’s trying to make. Because otherwise what you find yourself in is a position where you can sell something for a period of time because it is that hot new thing, but eventually, right, the shine wears off and, and now where do you left with? You’re left with, you know, sort of a, a rotten core that doesn’t have sustainability and scalability and all of the things that we’d like to see in a healthy business.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. And, and another thing you might find with this, and I felt this on sales calls for a long time until we really started to dial this in, is, or even on your website, it’s like you’re explaining all of these things, all these features or all of these services or all these tactics to a client, and you’re basically asking them to put the puzzle pieces together on how it’s gonna get them to the outcome that they want. As opposed to giving them the whole and then working backward by each piece exists, or here are these that we have that put the puzzle together. It’s kind of like you’re, you’re asking your client to do way too much work in bridging that gap between, I want to get here, we understand that, or I want to solve this problem. We understand that.

How do all these different things get me there? You don’t want to make them do that work. So having a solution framework is the bridge that you can give them to draw that line from what you’re selling them to where they want to go.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and it’s, I mean it if you have the solutions mindset… It’s, I mean, if you, if you think about it and you used fitness as an example before, I’ll sort of go to the other extreme and I’ll pick, you know, restaurants where you can be very unhealthy and all that kind of stuff. But you don’t go into the restaurants and, and they give you a list of all of the different ingredients that they have and the different cooking methods that they have available in the kitchen and, and start talking to you about that.

They’re going to present to you some dishes that you might be interested in consuming in order to satisfy your hunger in an enjoyable way. And so, if you think about that analogy and you start thinking about how can I package things up for a client so that it gives them what they’re looking for, It gives them what they need at the same time, right?

Because most of these dishes are gonna be fairly balanced, at least in most restaurants. You know, I’m not talking fast food or something like that, but there, you know, they’re gonna have some vegetables in there and you know, the things that you need to take along with the filet mignon or what have you. And so those are the kinds of things that if you’re thinking about how you’re packaging up your services for clients can be very helpful so that you, yes, you’re doing all the cool things that you want to do and and testing your team’s limits, and you’re getting to play with the new technology, but you’re ultimately producing solutions that are beneficial to the client.

And that’s a much better winning strategy. The other thing I wanted to touch on, you, you know, you talked about how, you know, people are afraid of nicheing, and we’ve talked about that a lot and it’s, it’s one of the reasons why I hate the word niche and prefer the word focus, because it, as you say, it doesn’t – niche has this idea that it has to be some sort of a vertical.

And, and it really doesn’t. It’s you’re trying to find clients who have a common set of problems. Or ideally common problem that you can solve, right? And, and so the more tightly focused you are, the more effective you can be at positioning yourself to solve that challenge, and the better your team can become at actually solving it.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. Yeah. And so that leads into, you know, kind of the next chapter in our story. So we spent almost three years building and then throwing out several software products. And with that hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was very, very painful. And what was really interesting is for almost four quarters in a row, my business partner, Ben and I, we would go into our quarterly off sites and we would sit down and be like, We give it one more quarter, and if by the end of the quarter this arbitrary list of milestones has not been achieved, then we’re gonna walk away and go back to market where we can go get amazing jobs and like make so much more money than we’re making right now.

And every quarter we would come back to the table. We would look at those objectives that we’d set for ourselves. We missed almost all of them every time. And we kept going because both of us looked at each other and said like, if I walk away and try to start something new, I, I’m just gonna want to work on this problem because I’m more convinced, even though we haven’t sold what we wanted or we haven’t gotten the traction that we wanted, or we haven’t, you know, gotten the feedback on our product that we wanted, I’m more convinced that the problem is real and it’s deep and it needs to be solved than I was, at the beginning of the quarter, we were constantly getting validation on the problem. The solution wasn’t right. So we, we had to figure, okay, what, what are we missing here on the solution? And letting go of the constraint of it having to be software was probably the biggest thing because at that point we were able to sit down and say, Okay, we burn everything down to the ground.

We no longer have to be a pure software company. What does the solution to this problem need to look like? And that’s when we developed our solution pov. And our framework for solving the problem. And then we said, Okay, well we actually need consulting services for a big part of this, and then we need some technology for this part.

And then we need like ongoing support for this other part. And we were able to design a service offering that was much more holistic, actually got clients to the place that they wanted, solved all the different problems that they were facing along the way. And it also dramatically improved the economics of our business as well.

And now we’re at a place where we can really start building great process and we’re starting to scale this up and hire people to deliver it. And we’re deepening our expertise. And all of this is actually improving our margins as well. It’s allowing us to charge more money. So there’s been all kinds of benefits that came out of this, but the turning point for us was really removing the constraints and thinking about this first in from the client’s perspective of like, what do they need? What would the best solution in the world look like for them? And we even at one point said, let’s do this exercise without any consideration for how it serves us, right? Doesn’t matter if it’s profitable, doesn’t matter if it makes us money, just what do they need?

What do we need to give them to actually solve this problem better than else in the world? And then just so happened that that turned out to be a really great business model as well.

Chip Griffin: Well, and I think what you did as far as, you know testing your ideas in the marketplace, you started by thinking, Okay, this is, this is the way we solve the problem.

And you said, Okay, well that, that doesn’t work. Let’s try this instead. That, that continuous iteration is something that you have to be prepared to do. And, and in the agency world, a lot of times you may start out your agency and say, Okay, I think this is my ideal client. I’m looking for, you know, mid-size enterprises that are in the manufacturing industry, for example, and that I’m gonna be offering them traditional earned media services.

And so you try that and, and so now let’s see what the, the marketplace says. Are, are those people receptive to your messaging? Are you able to produce the results that that you think you ought to be producing and that they’re happy with? If so, great, then, then you sort of know where you should continue your focus or at least part of your focus.

Yeah. If not, then you have to say, Okay, do I go down market? Do I go up market? Do I have to, you know, add digital to the traditional media services. How, how can I make adjustments to it in order to meet the needs of the marketplace and solve the problem that I’ve identified? And too few agencies in my experience, really take the time to do that.

And it tends to be more, you know, you announce the set of services you offer and you sort of take a, build it and they will come mentality. And, and you, and then you just, you have a client base based on who accidentally showed up. That’s not the recipe for a scalable, profitable business.

Marcel Petitpas: And there’s such an important thing here.

And again, this is, I think the reason that the really tactical reason that being clear on the problem saved our bacon as a company was because from the very beginning- I mean, you know this – it’s been four years, I’ve been creating content around this problem for four years. And so it didn’t matter what the product was.

Every week people would book conversations to talk to me, and sometimes they thought they were going to be talking to me about software and then they’d get on the call and I’d be like, Well, actually , we’re, we’re doing this new thing here. But like I was able to get surface area with the market and we maintained that surface area.

So when we had a new idea or we wanted to test something, We constantly were getting feedback and that’s exactly the problem, to your point Chip, with so many agencies is because they don’t know what problem they solve because they’re not building expertise around that. The surface area they have with the market is this very random, usually personal or professional network associated kind of referrals, and it’s sporadic in nature.

The scope of the problems that they’re being asked to solve is very wide. The surface area is not conducive to them finding product market fit because it’s not rooted in communicating to a market about a problem and getting people reaching out that are interested in solving that problem. But that surface area for us was the saving grace and the, the thing that really changed it for us was take getting rid of all the things that we had overengineered so that we could speed up our process to figuring out what works.

So I have a framework for this. I call it the ACD model. And it’s like if you, and this is really something I teach to like entrepreneurs that are just starting out scaling their first business. It’s like your first product is your marketing, right? Can you talk about the problem and talk about your point of view on the solution in such a way that people want to consume and engage with you on that and eventually want to talk to you about it.

If you can’t do that, then you don’t need a sales deck and you don’t need a product because there’s no use to it. No one’s talking to you about solving that problem there. There is no sale. There is no delivery. Then the second product is so attract is the first one, and that’s marketing. Attract.

Convert is the second one. So C which, and that’s now your sales deck. So your sales deck becomes your second product. And the thing that I say here that I think is a big idea is like if the formula for product market fit is surface area of the market multiplied by speed of iteration, then. Let’s say it takes you a month to make a change to your product, which if you’re writing software, that’s probably about how long it takes between the specking it out, writing the code, doing the QA, doing the iterations, when, and customer feedback, rolling it out, right?

If it takes you a month to make a change to the product, you get 12 opportunities per year to iterate towards product market fit. If you could do it in a week, Takes you 50, You know you have 52 opportunities. If you could do it in a day, you get 365. If you could do it multiple times a day, like you’re exponentially increasing, your chances of getting to product market fit.

So if your first product is your marketing and you validate that, then your second product becomes your sales deck. You could be changing your sales deck in between calls. So if you have three calls in a day, you could test three different ideas in the same day. And I was literally doing this at some point where it was like, okay, I just had two sales calls this morning.

They didn’t go very well. I’m gonna change the sales deck, try something new this afternoon. And it was only when I started selling things that I start thinking about the third piece, which is the D, which stands for deliver, which is okay. Now I’ve made some promises to a client, they’ve given me some money to deliver on these promises.

I can either give them the money back because I’m realizing I’m in over my head or I can give this a try and figure out how to deliver this and get them the outcome. And if they’re still not happy, then I’ll just give them their money back anyway. And really trying to de-risk the engineering of the product outside of or after we’ve already validated to somebody is willing to give us money to solve that problem and that the sales deck is effective and the way that we’re presenting the solution makes sense.

So it’s really this kind of selling yourself into the next problem. But again, the root of that is attracting people that want to solve that problem. And you do that by choosing a specific problem. But that’s kind of how when we reset the business, it was like we already did the first thing, which was attract.

So then we just had to get on calls. We started iterating on the offer. Once the offer was good, then we started actually building the service in real time, and we were getting paid to do that. Because it was a consulting service, and that’s the advantage. The unfair advantage compared to product and software companies that agencies have is you could sell something and then figure it out.

You don’t have to actually put all that risk out, outlay that you don’t have a supply chain you have to worry about. You don’t have code, you know, deployment cycles. It’s just human time, and if you have good skilled people in the organization or if you are a good skilled person, you can sell something and then figure it out after.

So take advantage of that, because that is a, a real, real big advantage when it comes to speed of iteration and finding product market fit. Anyway, rant over.

Chip Griffin: No, that’s a great point and, and you talk about the, you know, some degree of experimentation in the process to, to test and try things because until we’ve actually tried to deliver a particular solution for a client, we don’t actually know for sure that we’re going to be able to do it or how well we’re going to be able to do it.

And so, you know, while I, I do preach the need to have a strong focus and a real solid position, and understanding your ideal client, particularly in the early stages of your agency, there’s nothing wrong with taking on some, some different kinds of work just to see, I mean, obviously you don’t you know, go and take on work that’s completely out of your wheelhouse.

If you’ve never edited a video, don’t take on a video production project. Okay. That would be my suggestion, but certainly veer a little bit outside of your lane to try some different things, different kinds of clients, maybe slightly different service offerings to see, because you might surprise yourself at what it is that you’re able to do and how your client receives it. So be open to that experimentation, because if you don’t experiment, then it becomes more difficult to iterate because now you’re, you’re almost negotiating with yourself in those iterations as opposed to actually gathering real world data and experience.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. And at the end of the day, like if that problem is clear, you’re not iterating out of your wheelhouse, you’re just iterating on ways to solve that problem and ways of communicating the solution to the client. Right? And so they’re micro adjustments, but none of them are existential or fundamental to the business, which I think is the really important set of rails that gets put down around that experimentation if you have a clear problem that’s specified.

So that’s a, that’s a really important point to that as well.

Chip Griffin: And, and one of the other things we talked about in the pre-show, which I think is a good point to sort of start to draw this episode to a close on is that this iteration never stops. You always have to be keeping an eye on things and being open to making adjustments to your service offering, to your ideal client definition, to your positioning, to your value proposition, because those things will change over time. Even if you’ve got it all locked in and you’re firing on all cylinders and you’re like this, we’re producing repeatable results and generating great profits.

Yes, they are today, but at some point, and that may be six months or six years from now, I don’t know, but you’re going to have to make some adjustments in order to keep up with the marketplace and the, the differing expectations that come over time. So, so never rest on your laurels. Never feel like. . Okay.

We’re all set. And I know that that’s a process that, that you’re committed to in your own business.

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah, and, and we actually have a framework for this. We call it the agency profitability flywheel. And the way that we see this is it starts with the data feedback loop. So usually that’s some kind of reporting that you have that’s just giving you signals on where things are going the way that you plan, and where things are not going the way that you plan or they’re going better or worse.

And that’s, You know, simple stuff. Estimates versus actuals. It’s customer feedback, right? It’s all the signals of like, where is our product working and where is it maybe not working the way we intend it to? And then with that information that helps to guide you to conversations about why. Why is this type of service offering way more profitable than we expected?

And we’re spending half as much time than we estimated on it. Like, what can we learn from that and apply to the rest of our service? And why is this thing not going well? And why are customers not giving us good feedback about this? And the deepening of the expertise just creates a moat around the business and hopefully just helps you deliver more absurd results to your clients.

And all of those things are really good for pricing. And over time, this feedback loop should create two really good things. Number one, better data on how long it actually takes to do things. So that helps to de-risk operations because operations are, is basically just taking those assumptions and then using them to model different things: resource planning, pricing, cash flow, timelines, et cetera. And then the second piece is it creates better process, which allows you to streamline and scale the whole operation of the business. And over time, it should help you drive down actually your costs. Because the more clearly documented or the more regimented a process becomes, the less judgment is required to do it.

Less judgment, generally the less seniority is required from the person doing it. And so over time you can start to have more junior talent taking on larger chunks of your service offering, which should increase your margins over time. So there’s this really nice profitability, scalability effect that comes from just making sure that feedback loop is constantly running inside of the business, and it can be something that you empower your team with as well.

Chip Griffin: And, frankly, you also get better at what you’re doing, the more you do of it. So it’s, it has that, that dual benefit of yes, it’s taking you less work to actually accomplish it, but you’re actually typically producing better results too because you know exactly which levers to pull in order to produce the desired outcome for the client.

So Marcel, if somewhat is interested in learning more about some of the concepts you’ve talked about or perhaps learning about how they could work with Parakeeto. How can they find you?

Marcel Petitpas: Yeah. Check out parakeeto.com. We also have the Agency Profit Podcast everywhere that you get podcasts, if you’re an audiophile or you like to listen to content. I’m on LinkedIn, Marcel Petipas, and I’m wearing a shirt with birds on it, so I’m not hard to spot.

And lastly, yeah, if you’re interested in some free resources, including the agency profitability flywheel, and some great worksheets to help you implement that, you can check out parakeeto.com/toolkit. We’ve got a whole bunch of free stuff to help you improve your profitability and measure it too.

Chip Griffin: And I would encourage everybody listening to do those things, and particularly to subscribe to the podcast because it is a must listen if you are in the agency community.

So with that, that will draw to an end this episode of The Small Agency Talk Show. If you’d like to find previous episodes or some of the other video content that I put out, go to small agency.tv. And if you’d like to learn more about SAGA itself, go to smallagencygrowth.com. And with that everybody have a great weekend.

Look forward to seeing you all back again soon. And Marcel, I look forward to having you back on the show again very soon too.

Marcel Petitpas: Thanks, Chip, great to be here and we’ll see you again soon.