How to think about HR risks in your agency

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Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to the Small Agency Talk Show. I’m your host Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance. And I’m delighted to have with me today, Patrick Rogan of Ignition HR. Welcome to the show, Patrick.

Patrick Rogan: Hey Chip. Thanks for having me.

Chip Griffin: It is great to have you. You are one of the most regular recurring panelists.

Because you’re a great guest and also people are always interested in talent related issues. And so naturally we’ll be talking about that today. We’re going to be talking about how agency owners and leaders should be thinking about risk in the human resources context. So I’m sure we’ll have lots of insight for folks, but before we do that, for anyone who has not seen you on the show before, who are you and where can they find.

Patrick Rogan: Sure. So I’m Patrick Rogan. I provide HR consulting and fractional HR support, and you can reach me at Ignitionhr.com.

Chip Griffin: And you have lots of great resources, good newsletter, blog posts, all that kind of stuff. So if you are interested in knowing how you can do a better job with your talent, all the way from recruiting and retention onto departures.

Patrick can give you a hand. So, and I’m sure we’ll talk about departures at some point today. Cause anytime you’re talking about risk, you have to think about terminations, you know, for, cause not for cause, voluntary, but, really just to set the table here, I think it’s important for agency leaders, managers, to be thinking about the various aspects of their human resources program and the risks that they should take seriously.

And the risks that, you know, maybe. Yeah, it was more of a concern on paper versus one in reality. And I sort of liken this to when you’re driving, right. There are all sorts of different offenses that you can, and probably do commit as a driver. I mean, who amongst us has not gone a few miles an hour over the speed limit, right?

From time to time. Sometimes even more than that. And there are degrees of risk involved with that and you compare it to things like not fully stopping at a stop sign or drunk driving or reckless driving, texting while driving. All of these things are on the risk spectrum from a driving perspective and we have the same sort of risk spectrum when it comes to human resources in our agency businesses.

So, you know, as you think about it, what are some of the biggest risks that agency owners should be thinking about and trying to address?

Patrick Rogan: Yeah. So there’s several that seem to be reoccurring or particularly, you know, I noticed a lot over the last six months or so, one of the things that I’m seeing a lot of is.

Questions about this person who’s working for me… Should I pay this person as an, is this an employee or just a 1099 consultant or should they all be 1099 consultants? Is that okay? Is there any problem with that? Should I be worried about where this person lives? Because, I mean, do I really care where they live?

Um, those are, those are areas that I get questions about. That’s probably the number one. The number two is, is related to overtime versus, you know exempt versus non-exempt. Is this person overtime eligible. Does that make any difference? What happens if I give them a bonus? Those are …. That’s probably the two areas that probably stand out the most that I see.

And these are areas that if you do wrong, you can have the best of intentions, but if you do it wrong, you not only have to deal with what you did wrong, but when it gets investigated, they’re going to want to look much broader. So there is a potential follow on thing that could, could make it really particularly challenging.

Chip Griffin: Right. And I think, you know, misclassifying employees either from a 1099 versus W2 perspective to use US-based terminology, or exempt versus non-exempt, in other words, overtime eligible or not. Um, you know, those are probably two of the most common things and frankly, almost every agency has probably violated those at one point or another.

So I guess the question is. You know, how much is too much? How much should you be worried about this? You know, how often do agencies actually get caught on these things versus how much they worry about it? Because, you know, if it’s one of those things, in fact, I was talking to an agency owner recently, who basically said, all my competitors are hiring 1099s who look like employees.

I’ve never done that, but I feel like I’m at a disadvantage because I don’t have the same degree of flexibility by, you know, being someone who’s following the letter of the law.

Patrick Rogan: Right. Yeah. So the answer of course, is it depends, right? Isn’t it, isn’t that always the answer always, I think with, with 1099s, whether, you know, if someone qualifies as a consultant or not, a lot of it has to do with where you are and where the consultant is.

So rule of thumb, if, if the consultant is outside of the United States, oddly enough, You’re probably going to be okay. I mean, it’s something could happen, but, but realistically it probably won’t. Um, not that you’re gonna be hiring all of your consultants from out of the US but within the US if you’re in California or if a consultant that you’re hiring is in California, you should be very, very careful because chances are, um, you are at risk.

And I know in California, specifically, There are a lot of attorneys who make their entire living off of going after 1099 violations per the state compliance regulations that are so, you know, they don’t pass their ABC rules that they have. And, yeah, that’s one, you probably have significant risk on because there’s a lot of attention to that.

This isn’t all California focused, different states have similar things, but that’s an area where. If you’re doing it consistently wrongly over time, if you’re being sort of flagrant with how you do it, if all of your employees are 1099 consultants, and by the way, you’re calling your employee a 1099 consultant.

That’s just bad, you know, either they’re consultants or they’re an employee, but don’t mix it up. I hear that. I probably hear that more often than I should. Um, right. Yeah.

Chip Griffin: I’ve seen people call a 1099 an employee, please, please do not do that because now you have not even half a leg to stand on if someone takes a look at you. So it’s a bad, bad idea. I mean, I guess. You know, to me, the thing is with, with the 1099 classification in particular, and even with the overtime exempt versus non-exempt the vast majority of agencies that are violating, never get caught. Right. Right. The vast majority, your odds are very low at getting caught.

The problem is that the penalty is so severe. If you do get caught. And so, you know, that’s really the kind of thing that I, I think when you’re looking at risk, in this perspective, you need to be thinking about is, you know, what’s going to happen if someone does take a look. And let’s, let’s talk about how someone ends up, and by someone, I mean, the government ends up taking a look at how you’ve classified your team members. And, you know, some of it can be because an employee complains, usually a past employee.

Patrick Rogan: That happens a lot.

Chip Griffin: Someone, someone that you terminated as a contractor. And they’re like, I am bitter, I am angry. And my uncle’s an employment lawyer and told me that I can get back at you by doing this.

Right. Um, so, so that’s one way. More and more I’m seeing state governments doing audits, just randomly to try to catch these because it’s an opportunity to recoup additional revenue for the state, in addition to whatever good they may be doing for the employee. But I’m sure it’s about the individuals.

I’m sure it’s not about their tax coffers, but they’re….

Patrick Rogan: Couldn’t possibly be.

Chip Griffin: Couldn’t possibly be. And then the third is, and this is really just on the 1099 front. Um, you know, some agencies will mess up because they take an employee and then make them a contractor after the fact. So they’re a W2, then they become a 1099.

Guess what? Your state can easily see that because they share records between the departments that are taking care of those two things. And they just look at the social security number and they see, hey! I was an employee for agency X, and now I’m a 1099. That’s bad. Don’t do that. Or at least really strongly document why it happened and that there’s a legitimate case for it.

Patrick Rogan: And indeed, that is probably the one that gets kicked out the quickest and they must have something in their systems that like all of a sudden alarms go off. And, you know, because like, you have someone who is a W2 employee, one day. And then mysteriously, as far as the government is concerned, they become a consultant.

And, all of a sudden, you know, taxes aren’t being held and, you know, you have this whole slippery slope.

Chip Griffin: It’s a simple database check. I mean, that’s how they catch it because they know that this happens. And so it’s an opportunity to catch it and flag it. I mean, many years ago I had this in one of my agency businesses where someone very legitimately went, they started their own independent business. I still wanted to work with them for a piece of their time. And so they went from being a W2 to a 1099. And I mean, I think it was within 30 days, I got a letter from the state saying, Hey, justify this. So, so you, I mean, that is one of those cases where you just want to make sure because that’s, you know, that is so easy to get caught that way, but the other two still happen.

But I guess, you know, when you’re counseling someone, do you tell them. You know, abide to it by the letter. Do you say, do the best you can. I mean, how do you, how do you give advice?

Patrick Rogan: I say, avoid the situations that are going to get you in the most scrutiny. Now having said that there are legitimate situations where someone does retire, leave a company and they’re needed to help on a special project.

You know, you aren’t going to hire them back to do that. So, so there are legitimate reasons to do that. You know, there are people who will resign from a company, they will start their own business. They’ll have multiple clients, they have all their own equipment or not on an org chart with their former employer anymore.

And, yeah, that might kick out, but I’m not going to be too worried about that because you know, it, you know, it looks and quacks like a duck, so it’s a duck. Right? So that, that, I’m not as worried about what I’m worried about. Someone who essentially in the same role they ran before in the same office using the same company, provided equipment, still on an org chart.

That’s just not going to work out well, you know, it’s got risk written all over it. That’s probably the number one thing I see that, results in bad things the quickest.

Chip Griffin: Right. How about overtime classification? You know, that’s one where a few years ago we went through a whole exercise. And in fact, in the business I was at, at the time I was working with you to make sure that we had compliance.

Cause it, the department of labor, in the United States was, was on the verge of enforcing rules that would have basically said you had to make a fairly substantial salary before your duties even mattered to the, the overtime classification, right. You had to have that minimum salary threshold now it’s, it’s, it didn’t end up changing.

So it’s still at a relatively low level. So it really does come down for most agencies to the duties of the employee. You know, how should you be thinking about that kind of risk? How worried should you be? How many agencies have issues with employees these days, you know, who are out of compliance?

Patrick Rogan: So I see it more than you would think. And I think that it’s important to understand that this is an area where there is a lot more enforcement, you know? I’m seeing it a lot more. And I think it’s the, it’s the kind of thing where if you’re a flagrant violator, if you have all of your employees who you pay on salary, irrespective of the role, versus if you have one or two that you, classify inappropriately. So let’s say you have, a PC tech, that you say is exempt because they have a degree. Well, that’s probably not going to pass. And, but that, and if that’s the only one you have, you’re probably gonna get a slap on the wrist.

That’s not going to be a big deal, but I have seen agencies where everyone is exempt from a first year person out of school. To the person who is sitting at the front desk, to the person who sweeps the floors at the end of the day. And those I’ve noticed, you know, you get a little bit more, you know, the government gets a little more serious in terms of what the penalties are going to be for that.

And when we talk about the penalties, we’re talking about fines, we’re talking about legal costs. We’re talking about back-pay potentially, we’re talking about benefits that maybe need to change. I mean, it gets really, really complicated. So I think as long as you’re in general doing right, you’re okay. If you’re off by one or two, you’re going to, it’s not good, but it’s not going to be horrible. If you totally throw it out and say, you know what, I’m just going to do what I want to do.

I don’t really care about this. Everyone here is on salary. Then those are the ones where I think there’s the most risk.

Chip Griffin: Right. And I think that the, you know, one of the key things to remember here is that the difference between some of these HR violations and say a speeding ticket is, you know, you don’t get nicked just for the one time you got caught, right?

So you don’t get nicked for just the one contractor that brought it to the agency’s attention. You don’t get, you know, the one employee you didn’t classify right. For overtime, they will generally go in for a number of years back at all of your employees and contractors to make sure the classifications are correct.

So, you know, it’d be sort of like if the one time you got caught speeding and they looked at the black box in your car and said, oh, and we see these 17 other times that you were speeding…

Patrick Rogan: It’s just like that, yes.

Chip Griffin: Now we’re going to send you a ticket for all of those as well.

Patrick Rogan: Yeah. And they also, when they look at penalties, they, the government in general is going to look at it from the perspective of, was this just a mistake? Did you misclassify an employee or two, or are you a flagrant violator? And if they consider you to be a flagrant violator, then you’re right. That’s where they’re going to want to look at everything and you’re going to get, you know, they will go after you. For sure. So I guess the key is don’t be flagrant,

Chip Griffin: Right. So, all right. So let’s, let’s move on from these classification issues. There are certainly other areas of risk that we need to be thinking about. And a lot of them come in the areas where there is potential for discrimination. And typically that’s the hiring process, particularly interviews as well as the hiring decision itself, it can happen on the termination end.

You know, and so you need to be thinking about some of the triggers. I think you need to be thinking about training for particularly on the interview side. A lot of times, you know, particularly in a small agency, we’ll just throw, you know, an account executive in to do an interview with a potential new hire, but we haven’t given them any training or advice on what they can or can’t ask what they should or shouldn’t ask.

You know, on the termination side, you know, a lot of times, you know, we just, you know, in the, in the moment we’re like, we’re just, I’m, I’m done with you, I’m done. You’re fired. Right. We don’t think about, okay, how do we make sure that we do this in such a way that, that I haven’t created a potential problem.

So how should you be thinking about those issues? What steps should you be taking to protect yourself? Yeah. You know, what’s reasonable versus, I mean, you’re not going to send every person who’s in an interview process to a formal training and have them certified in doing proper interviews and all that kind of stuff.

But how do you, how do you think about mitigating this risk in a reasonable way?

Patrick Rogan: So one of the things that I’ve noticed over the years is that I do a lot of training for interviewers in my clients. And I think it’s important to do. I think it’s important when particularly when a position comes open, that hasn’t been opened before.

It’s a good idea to get everyone who’s going to be involved with the hiring process in a quick 30 minute call, zoom, what have you, and just kind of go through what are the primary qualifications, we’re looking for, for this role. What are the experiences we want this person to bring to the table? And then how are we going to glean from candidates if they have those criteria, focus specifically on roles, responsibilities, and qualifications. When we have that conversation, I usually say, and oh, by the way, you can’t ask these questions. And this is the reason why. So many times inappropriate questions get asked with the best of intentions, you know, like nothing really bad is intended.

There was just a conversation like, you know, how many kids do you have? And, you know, I’m a part of this congregation, you know, where, where do you go to church or. Can you believe this election, we have coming up, man. Those Republicans are crazy. Or, you know, those are, those are questions that are just have no place in the interview process.

And, and for the candidate, you know, they can really take offense to those kinds of things. And those are areas that all, if you can get you into trouble that you just don’t need to be in. So I think it’s good to remind people who are involved with the process, this is where you need to focus on your questions. This is what you need to stay away from.

When I do those trainings, it honestly Chip, scares the bejesus out of me when people say, well, I’ve asked that, is it okay if I ask this kind of question? And you know, sometimes I’m like, oh my heavens, no, please don’t ask that!. Well, I just -no, no, no, no, no.

So it’s because it’s like, we don’t like in everyday life, we don’t interview candidates on a day-to-day basis. And in most agencies, I mean, how many new people you’re hiring, you know, some every now and then, but each person in a group, you know? So I think it’s important just to be aware, to be educated.

Um, you can look up on the internet. There are things that will, you know, tips, don’t ask those questions, all that, ask that question, because that really puts you on a slippery slope. If you do it wrong.

Chip Griffin: Right. And, and it’s, you know, it’s one of those things where seemingly innocuous questions can be the ones that get you into the most trouble. And I’ve certainly had a number of experiences over the years where folks have shared with me questions they like to ask in interviews and my eyes just get wide. And I’m like, I’m sorry, you asked what?!

Patrick Rogan: Oh, I know. Blows me away.

Chip Griffin: Why, please, please, please stop asking that. Do not, do not ask that. And I mean, and the rules do change on some of these things.

I think we’ve talked about this on a previous show where. You know, in some jurisdictions you can no longer ask for salary history, which, I mean that for a lot of us, that has been a stock question over the years. Right. And, now not only is it inadvisable, but it’s impermissible in many places.

Patrick Rogan: Yeah. I think there are 21 states, I think about we’re getting close to half the states.

Chip Griffin: Right? So at that point, it’s just better just to, to rid yourself of it all together so that you don’t have to pay attention.

Patrick Rogan: And you don’t need that. You really don’t need that information. You just don’t like, you should know about what you can pay and, and pay the person a fair salary and be done with it.

Chip Griffin: And you can share that range and you should get a reaction and you’ve got the information you need at that point. Right. You know, if you say this, you know, this is, this position is probably 40 to 50 K a year. And if they’re like, Hmm, you know, you’ve got your information, right?

You don’t, you don’t need to know that they were already making 70 at their last job. And so therefore this is not interesting.

Patrick Rogan: And in some states you have to share that information. So for instance, uh, I’m in the state of Maryland. If someone, if a candidate asks you the salary range, you have to provide that to them legally.

Um, in New York, you have to provide it in advertisements. I think Colorado does that as well, too. So, I mean, it’s a little slippery out there in terms of how you have to do that. It’s good to double check that before you interview.

Chip Griffin: Right. So, you know, there are, there are things that can come up. Even if you don’t ask a question, there are things that can come up in interview process that can complicate the hiring process.

You know, one of, one of the ones that comes up a lot for agencies, is that the candidate is currently pregnant. And sometimes they will not say anything. Sometimes they will volunteer that during the interview process, but now you’ve got one of those potential thorny issues. Right. And, and please, a number of years ago, I had an agency owner say to me, you know, while I, I just hired this person, you know, I didn’t know they were pregnant. I wouldn’t have hired them if I knew. God, I hope you didn’t put that in writing anywhere!

Patrick Rogan: Yeah, don’t do that. Immaterial.

Chip Griffin: Please. Don’t. I understand. I mean, look, and particularly for small agencies, it’s a challenge, right? Because I mean, if you’ve got a five or 10 person team, having someone new, come on to fill a need that you probably have, and then, you know, three months later disappears for three months.

Well, that, I mean, I get it. It’s inconvenient. Sorry, you still can’t go down that road. But let’s, let’s say that, that something comes up in a conversation. You know, to, to me, I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I would be extra careful about how I document that hiring process. If I’m choosing not to hire that person.

Right. I want to make sure that I’m keeping close track of who I’ve interviewed, the process I’ve gone through, and all those things. So that just in case something comes back, I don’t have to just say, yeah. You know, I don’t really remember why I didn’t hire that person.

Patrick Rogan: Right. So, so I’m a copious note taker, and I interview a lot of candidates and occasionally someone will volunteer information like, well, salary.

So this is my current salary and they’re welcome to – you know, any candidate can volunteer any information. Yes. But I can’t ask that information. When a candidate volunteers that information, I just don’t write it down. Right. And I don’t pass it along to anybody else either because it can be perceived that I asked that question when I, when I document it. Another popular one, not popular. Another problem one that I see, more frequently than it should is sometimes in the course of a conversation, a candidate will mention something medical related, you know, and full disclosure. I have an operation coming next month. I need to have my gallbladder taken out.

All right. Now we’re in an area where some personal health information has been shared. PHL. And it’s important that the interviewer be careful about sharing that information because there are HIPAA rules and there, you know, you don’t think about it, but all of a sudden personal health information has to be, has been shared.

Who can I share that with? Rule of thumb is don’t share it with anyone, technically you can share it with anyone who needs to know. So like if you’re an interviewer and you wanted to share it with the manager, technically you could do that. I still wouldn’t recommend it. If the candidate wants to mention it to the manager, to let the candidate mentioned it to the manager, don’t get involved with that.

But that’s probably the one area that I see that people just – you don’t think about it. It comes up in conversation. Someone else shares it with somebody else. Now the whole company knows and it’s like, and then all of a sudden the employee starts – well, how did everybody know about this? I think I only told one person like, oh yeah, we’ve got a problem.

Chip Griffin: Right. Um, so I mean, obviously the hiring end is one place where this comes up. It can come up during just general performance, but the other place, it really rears its head is on terminations. And so, so if you’re in a place where you’re going to terminate someone and they are in a protected class of some sort, or they’ve recently shared some health information with you or something like that, which maybe is immaterial to the decision.

Yeah, but it’s now created a complicating factor. So how do you think about that risk? Other than, of course you ought to be consulting with an HR consultant and probably an employment lawyer, depending on the degree of, of sensitivity.

Patrick Rogan: Well, part of that depends upon – your risk depends upon the size of your agency.

Right? So if you have more than 20 employees, then some protected classes are going to get additional consideration. Like, so for instance, in the termination, if you have 20 or more employees and an employee you’re going to separate and offer a severance to is age 40 or older, Then there are particular clauses that need to be in that agreement.

And that can differ by state as well, too. So there’s some little areas you probably might not think about. The other thing is you may have lessons 20 employees, but maybe you still want to honor that. So that’s a, that’s an area. In general, if you’re doing the right thing, if you’ve done everything you can to help that employee be successful and they just haven’t taken the initiative and they haven’t.

Then, you know, you’re probably headed to the right place for a separation. You want to make sure you provide enough information, but not too much information. You know, I see with separations kind of two things that happen more frequently than they should. One is you have an employee that probably should have been separated six months ago, but the employer for whatever reason, didn’t take the time to communicate with, was too busy to deal with it or whatever.

So you, you have an employee that’s failing in a situation, probably should be somewhere else being successful. Um, negative impacts on the organization, the company, cause things just weren’t taken care of. And you just like – for heaven sakes, you know, stop the pain and suffering. You need to, you need to deal with this.

The other is, and you referred to it earlier. You know, I can’t believe this happened – You’re fired. You know, so unless it’s gross insubordination, you probably don’t want to have someone separate employment, you know, within 24 hours, you know, you, you need…

Chip Griffin: Even if it’s gross insubordination, I would just say, go home, take a day. Right. And still go through a proper process.

I mean, I don’t care how egregious it is. I mean, if they go on to the client’s social media account and post porn or something. I don’t care. Don’t fire them in the heat of the moment, you know, suspend them or something like that and, and go deal with the proper paperwork.

Patrick Rogan: Yeah. It’s like never make any business decision, particularly a people one when you’re angry.

Chip Griffin: Correct. It will get you into trouble every single time. It will get you into trouble.

Patrick Rogan: On the people side in particular. Give it a little bit of time. Nothing has to happen today.

Chip Griffin: And I think the other thing to keep in mind with, with terminations is, you know, a termination is not Festivus. There is no need for the airing of the grievances at that point in time, right?

Yeah. It’s it’s the employment is over. Move on.

Patrick Rogan: Yeah. Less is more with those conversations. You want to communicate specifically what’s happening. You want to make it crystal clear, but you really want to get the employee who’s now terminating, leaving employment, to focus on, well, what are the next steps for me?

You know? So are you offering any kind of severance, do you have outplacement, what little things can you do because that’s what that person needs to be focused about. And by the way, when you have the conversation, even though you’ve given plenty of advanced information, plenty of warning.

They are always going to be surprised. So just expect that, they’re always going to be, they’re going to be surprised and your role is kind of help them with that transition. You know, they’re going from an employee to an ex-employee. They need to think about what are the next steps they need to do the land their next job.

And the more you assist them with that process, the better off you’ll be.

Chip Griffin: Right. And, and I think, you know, regardless of how you assess the risk of an individual termination, it’s probably a good idea to work with a professional advisor because most small agencies simply aren’t doing enough terminations that they’re actually experienced at it.

And so if you’re only doing a termination every few years, It makes sense to just to run each one by someone who knows all the rules and regs, because you may not think that someone who’s 41 years old needs to have a different kind of termination letter than someone else. Right. But as you’ve pointed out, if you’re over 40 and in a certain size organization that may kick in. There may be other requirements that you may not think of, that may not be obvious to you, that your advisor can help you to make sure that you’re not, you know, stumbling over something silly that you could have solved with an extra three sentences in the termination paperwork.

Patrick Rogan: Right. And you know, I have to tell you Chip, but I think I’ve mentioned this to you before more than half of my new clients, I start with them helping them with the termination process.

The conversation begins. Hey, I have a, I have an employee I need to separate from my company and I don’t know how to do it. Can you help me with this? I’ve been keeping track of it: less than half, but a good chunk of them. I’m going to say 30 to 40%, when I do my piece, which is ask a bunch of questions and do my due diligence before I assist them with the separation process.

When I, when I go back to the agency owner and say, Hey, this is what I’ve learned. It’s amazing how many times they say, well, wait a minute. Maybe I have this person in the wrong role, or maybe there’s a misunderstanding or maybe there’s a skill that I wasn’t aware of. Or like there was, there was this extenuating… and then either it doesn’t happen or it happens differently at a later date or there’s a change in role or that kind of thing.

So, it’s, it’s interesting, it doesn’t always pan through the way they see it’s going to pan through when someone just asked a bunch of questions and just help me to understand, oh, wait a minute. I might’ve missed something. So for what it’s worth.

Chip Griffin: Well, you know, we could talk about HR for a lot longer, unfortunately we’re out of time.

So I’m sure that that we’ll have an opportunity to talk again about some other risks. You know, maybe even at some point, we’ll talk about some of the things that agencies worry about from risk perspective that just aren’t that big a deal. And they probably don’t need to spend as much time worrying about, but if you have concerns, if you have questions, obviously Patrick can be a great resource for that.

And you can go to ignitionhr.com, as he mentioned earlier, for those resources, or to get in touch with him for conversation. If you’d like to learn more about SAGA, you can just go to smallagencygrowth.com. And if you’d like to see previous episodes of this show, my other podcasts, all sorts of stuff, just go to small agency.tv and be sure to subscribe there because you’ll get notified every single time a new video comes out with great content. So with that, that’s going to bring and end to today’s show. Patrick, thank you for joining me and to all of the viewers out there. Thank you for watching or listening, depending on what platform you’re consuming this content on.

And I look forward to seeing everyone back on a future show.

Patrick Rogan: Thanks, Chip.