Running an experiential marketing agency in 2021 (featuring Dan Hirsch and Deb Lemon)

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Chip Griffin: You’re listening to Chats with Chip on the FIR Podcast Network, featuring conversations with agency owners and experts.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Chats with Chip. I’m your host, Chip Griffin, and I’m very pleased to have with me two guests. They are the co CEOs of OBE, Onboard Experiential. They are Dan Hirsch and Deb Lemon. Welcome to the show.

Dan HIrsch: Thanks, Chip.

Deb Lemon: Thanks, Chip.

Chip Griffin: It is great to have you both here. You are the co CEOs of the agency and we’ll talk about that in a minute.

But first, why don’t you, tell us a little bit about OBE.

Dan HIrsch: Sure. OBE was founded in 1995. I started the company and really we started as more of a, event agency, production company built for action sports and music. my background, prior to starting OBE was came from the music industry. I worked as an agent, in New York City for Wu Tang Clan, Onyx, Run DMC, a lot of the hip hop groups.

And really, it was, combining kind of two passions together, music and action sports. I, I lived on a ski mountain in Colorado and when snowboarding was just starting and, and fell in love with that and, really saw an opportunity at that time to kind of meld action sports and music together to create proprietary events, such as festivals.

that, that makes the two together, and that was really the impetus of, of the company, and, and really started as a proprietary company where we owned and operated our own events, and then after years and years of doing that, about five or seven years and realizing that was a very tough business model, we kind of evolved into a work for hire.

type of agency where we started, you know, the companies that we were working with as sponsors, we ended up talking to them about other programs they were doing, and hiring us to handle the production to an execution of those events. and then it just kind of evolved from there. So,

Chip Griffin: and Deb, what was your journey to the agency?

Deb Lemon: Yep. I, worked at Nike for 13 years in, various locations, Beaverton, Colorado, London, New York. And I learned the, event world through Nike. I got my education, if you will, there. And, we ended up creating our own, events instead of sponsoring the events. So we started out sponsoring and then we moved into crafting and creating, and we worked with agency and OBE was one of our agencies that we worked with.

And I, love the events so much. Nike’s not an event company. It does do events, but it’s not an event company. And so I had a great opportunity, to join on with Dan as his business partner and, the rest is history.

Chip Griffin: Excellent. Well, I mean, the event space, it’s been quite kind of, you know, boring, uninteresting for the last year or so, nothing going on, right?

I mean, it’s, you know, sort of same old, same old. so no, in all seriousness, obviously, the event industry has, has taken, you know, quite a hit in the pandemic. And so I’m curious, you know, what, what’s going on with events today? Where are they headed in the future?

Deb Lemon: Yeah, death by zoom, right? I think everybody is wondering what’s happening with, with meetings and, and our team is so excited to get back to in real life events that they can’t wait.

But in the meantime, we have done a pivot into, virtual events, hybrid events, you know, not, looking forward to hybrid events in, in the, as the way back. So the virtual events actually really, our team did a great job learning new platforms, learning new skills through this, and developing, although we did do some streaming events before, it is just exploded to every event, that, that we do in our portfolio now has a, you know, virtual component to it, obviously.

And, and our team, really crafts every bit of that experience because. We did that in real life now taking it to the digital side has us thinking about everything from start to finish or what opportunities we’re missing out on. And I think we did, had a great event with, show me your walk as virtual graduation that we did for JPMorgan Chase, filling a need that was there for, people during this pandemic.

so we’re really excited about the creative opportunities that have come out of this. as well as the new skill sets.

Chip Griffin: And, you know, Dan, I think, you know, one of the things that a lot of folks are debating, not just in the agency space, but elsewhere, is, you know, what changes will stick from what we’ve had to do over the last year and what’s going to go back to quote unquote normal, and this is everything from, you know, where we work, how we work, to obviously events.

Yeah. You know, is, what is the long term impact of the last year on, Events going forward. Will we see more virtual and hybrid events? Will we see just a rollback to 2019 events whenever we can, you know, get to that safely or, you know, what do you see happening?

Dan HIrsch: Yeah, look, I think, I think if there’s one thing that we’ve absolutely learned is that people continue to crave live interaction, you know, and we’ve known this about the experiential space forever and, and the way we’ve known it is, is, you know, You know, 10, 15, 18 years ago, you know, when they started streaming live concerts on a high definition on your television and all that stuff.

and, and, you know, you’re sitting on your couch with surround sound and great view and it doesn’t cost you anything well, I’d never took off. People don’t care about watching a concert on their couch, even, no matter how great the experience is on their, on their, on their chair. You can’t, you can’t be being out in live experience and seeing it live and being part of the community and interacting with other human beings.

And I think if anything, this pandemic has created more demand for people to get back out there. And I think everybody understands what they took for granted. Maybe. What they missed in those conferences. You had to fly to that. You were like, not so excited about people are actually excited about doing that again and listening to a speaker or keynote and having that live in that presentation live versus watching on a zoom call or another platform.

It’s you just can’t replace it. So, I think we’re going to come back big, hard and fast. but there will absolutely be some, some things that stick with us and, and certainly this hybrid model, the ability to do both a live, in person event and stream and get reach a larger audience. I think you’re going to see, some of the events be a little bit smaller in scale and size and scope.

From the live side as we roll back, but then they’re going to have the expanded, ability to reach more people, globally through streaming. So I think every event is going to combine both of those experiences together, rather than just rely on one or the other.

Chip Griffin: Now, you both have brought up hybrid events and, and Deb, maybe you can speak to, you know, what some of the challenges are with hybrid events in making sure that it’s a good experience for both the in person and virtual audience.

I know from my conversations with event producers, this is, this is one of the things that they’re really focused on and making sure that both sides are, you know, getting appropriate value out of them because, you know, the experience is obviously very different if you’re there physically versus if you’re there just watching.

Right.

Deb Lemon: Yeah, it’s almost like two different events and how do you make sure that they sync up so that you don’t miss some information and one in the live event that you would have online. and integrating those two, you know, seamlessly, you know, are there various things that you can do to make sure that that content is shared.

back and forth. And that’s something that, you know, we didn’t have the chance to do before as much as we will do going forward. however, we do hope that the budgets will be there because it is almost like two different events that you are two different parts of an event that you have to merge together with your clients.

So we do believe that our clients. Will, want to achieve that. I mean, I think you’re going to have a smaller audience in person, to start out with a lot of testing, you know, a lot of the safe measures, COVID safe measures that you’re going to have to do and the spacing and the health, department, aspects of it.

But I think you can weave a narrative through the story, both online and in person that can come together. in a great, outcome for the clients they’re looking for.

Chip Griffin: And if, if you had to pull out your crystal ball and, and predict, you know, when, when are we going to be doing in person? You know, what, what, if, if a client comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I, I, I really want to figure out the soonest I can do in person.

Deb Lemon: Yeah. Okay. All right. Which brand.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. So, so what, what advice are you giving to clients or prospects when they come to you and ask you that question?

Dan HIrsch: I think that, there’s, there’s already clients that are doing, live in person events. They’re doing small versions of things. They’re trying sampling programs on a small level, COVID safe level.

I think they’re challenging because the ROI is tough on them for the investment on the return you’re getting until you can get to more scale and size. Realistically, I think you’re going to start, I think you’re going to start seeing, Consumer facing events from concerts and stuff really coming back end of summer and to the fall.

I think you’re going to see tours in the fall. I know a bunch are already scheduled, whether they’ll happen or not is not 100 percent sure, but I think you’re going to start seeing people coming back out in the fall. I think corporate events are going to take a little bit longer, to get back in line.

I think they’re going to be a little, they’re going to play it a little safer. Be a little bit more conservative. It’s not, their core business that they have to do. but I think, as Deb said, you’re going to see smaller events, smaller gatherings, more premium scaled sized events, happening, as as early as late.

summer. I think the fall is gonna be busy. I think we might actually start seeing some of our, how, you know, holiday parties, corporate holiday parties come back in December. I think that might be some of the first things that come back online. But I think by 2022 it’s going to be in full swing again.

Chip Griffin: Now, I mean, obviously a lot of organizations ran into problems last year when when, you know, everything came on and events had to be canceled and all that. And it was a financial hit for some organizations. Is that going to make? Do you think people gun shy a little bit and a little bit reluctant to be the first ones back?

and wanting to wait and see? Or, you know, do you think that there’s just so much pent up energy that people are going to say, you know, I’m going to put it on the calendar. I’m taking that risk.

Dan HIrsch: Yeah, I think they’re going to put on the calendar. I mean, again, these are large corporations have a lot of money, right?

So it’s not, you know, most of these guys, that’s not really about the money. It’s about the impact and the ROI they’re going to get on it. and specifically, you know, as they come back and they start doing smaller events, you know, they’re going to scale up again, they’re not going to come back with the guns blaring, but I think they’ll start out at small to medium size events and start growing back into a larger size, so therefore they’re taking less risk.

Chip Griffin: Deb, do you, do you see any silver lining in what we’ve had to go through over the last year? I mean, obviously there’s a lot of pain, a lot of challenge, but you know, do you, do you think that there are, there are good changes that will come out of it?

Deb Lemon: Oh, absolutely. I think, some of the changes are, gonna be in the quality of the events that you’re going to have.

I mean, I think more focused on what KPIs are. Now that we’re doing this online version. There’s a lot of data that’s coming through. a lot, some of our clients wanted the event. On the emotional connection. And I think we really miss that. I mean, we’re getting tons of great data, but we’re missing that emotional connection with, for the brands.

So I think combining those two, you’re going to have, you’re going to have really great, information and excitement, around the brand. Whatever brand launch or connection that you’re going to make with either your clients or your customers, going forward.

Chip Griffin: Now, obviously, you know, we’ve, we’ve talked about the event side of the equation, but, you know, let’s talk about the agency for a minute.

A lot of agencies over the last year have had to, to make changes, you know, as far as, you know, what expertise they needed in house or how much of it they needed and all that, you know, what, what changes have you had to make? Have you had to beef up on the technology side as you’ve done more virtual event work?

Has that required changes in talent? I mean, talk about some of the evolution that you’ve experienced in that regard.

Dan HIrsch: Yeah. I mean, we’ve, we’ve absolutely, made massive changes this year. We’ve, we’ve, we just completed, in house Remy Studio. So we have a full remote, recording and, and studio facility.

Now, we brought on, many, technical director roles, technology roles, and we retrained our entire production staff to play, line producer roles on all of these, recordings and, and streaming and live broadcast. So we’ve had to kind of re, formulate our agency in many, many ways, not just on that side, but on our strategy side, our creative side, our account side.

I mean, everybody had to learn a new language and everybody jumped in to learn that language as quickly as possible. and we, we, Even though we lost, you know, we, we did reduce our staff by, about 15 to 20 percent when it first hit, we’ve replaced them all with, with new roles, essentially that, fulfill the new needs of our clients right now.

So we’re almost at, back up to the same number of staff that we had, going prior to going into COVID. and we just really reconfigured, some of the services and roles. And we did mostly, we did retraining of our staff. to pick up these new, these new roles. So, you know, we, we’ve, we, we were very extremely lucky and grateful that we’re coming out of this the other side and we have this entire new skill set and service opportunity that we, we can offer.

Deb Lemon: Yeah. And our, our team is so, So, gung ho about learning new skills that they took, some of them took it upon themselves to go out and build their own skill sets and understandings about what we are, new services that we offered, you know, everybody. Jumped in with both feet and really, took it upon themselves to, to try to learn that and we supported them, you know, all through that.

So, I think our team, the ingenuity and the, the, You know, self starters that we have, just really took, took over during that period.

Chip Griffin: And, and can you talk a little bit about how the team got this training? Did you, I mean, obviously you didn’t send them to conferences like you might have in the past, but you know, where they’re online trainings, was it, did you use videos?

I mean, talk a little bit about how you, you got them the skills that they needed, because I know a lot of agencies right now are trying to figure that out. How do you, how do you upscale your team in the current environment?

Deb Lemon: Yeah, a lot of it’s learning by doing. I mean, that’s our motto. Anyway, I think if we’re doing something for the first time that’s never been done before, we, our team loves to do that.

So they all, we were a little heavy on the staffing, not charging our clients for those, but, but so people could sit in and listen and learn and, and build off the people that did know it. we hired some new staff obviously that had that experience and we paid for some classes for, for people to go through.

So I think it was a myriad of different ways that depending on the, the, employees, experience with it. we allowed them to customize it to fit their needs.

Chip Griffin: So, you know, as we’re talking about employee roles, as you know from our preshow conversation, one of the things that interests me is the fact that you are co CEOs.

It is not, it is not completely unheard of, but it is not particularly common either. and so I, you know, I’m, I’m curious, Dan, you started, the agency, you were the, you know, the man in charge. You didn’t have to have, you know, your, you didn’t run your opinions by anybody else. I assume you, you just sort of said, this is what I’m doing, right?

I mean, it’s, it’s what I’ve done when I’ve owned my own business. You know, you kind of, the buck stops with you, but it’s also, you know, the freedom to make decisions as a, as, as co CEOs, how do you, how do you manage the, the responsibilities and, and how do you work through some of those? Because I know other agencies, whether they’re business partners or otherwise are trying to figure some of those same things out.

Dan HIrsch: Yeah, reality is I don’t think I ever made any decisions on my own. So the bottom line is I feel that if you don’t have support on what you want to do and buy in across the board, it’s not going to work anyways. So, even though the relationship when Deb joined the company was the CEO, she took on the president role, the equity wasn’t, even at that time, I, and, and Deb can answer this herself, but I always felt I never made any decisions without Deb’s approval.

So I think we kind of approached every decision. It doesn’t mean we didn’t argue, disagree, all of that, constantly. But I, you know, you don’t think, you know, I ever put my foot down and said, this is just, what’s going to happen. And that’s too bad. And that’s what it is. And I think, that’s how it’s always been.

so, you know, and Deb’s been with me for, and been with the company for 10 plus years, so the reality is, you know, we made this decision, I think back in August, is that correct? No, last year, to, to have Deb join me as a co CEO, but you know, it really wasn’t any change because the title was different, but the roles and responsibilities stayed identical.

You know, I always ran the creative, The team and the production team and Deb ran an account and operations. and the reality is it really didn’t change anything because we were always operating that way. and I think it was, not only did she deserve it, right. And she earned the role and she earned everything she’s done for this company and this agency.

but I also think it sent a great statement to the rest of our staff. We’re 64 percent women, in our agency. And I think that, It was, it was a good message to send because it was equal pay, equal role for equal work. So

Chip Griffin: well, I think, you know, in any agency, you know, it’s always helpful to have someone pushing back on you.

So, you know, so to have that kind of relationship where you can argue and you can debate things, you know, that improves things, right? I mean, that’s a lot of agency owners who are solos miss out on that because they don’t have someone who can help challenge their Their perspective,

Deb Lemon: and I think it really, I mean, this conflict resolution, right?

We come at our, we bring our own experiences to the workplace and we have a different filter through which we look at different situations and without having that dialogue or that discussion about it, I think you can get to a better place so much. So the Dan and I have this, This, you know, when we call a conflict resolution, if we don’t agree on something on how our POB and, and what’s gonna go forward, that our leadership team and, and we’ve developed a really good, sup leadership, level, team here at OBE so that Dan and I can, co you know, rise up and look at more.

future challenges of the work, but they use us, Dan and I, and how we disagree about things, you know, and, and for the younger generation, because a lot of times, you know, hiding behind an email or going along to get along when you’re young and in coming up in this business is kind of hard because.

Sometimes you only have one shot to, to, to make an event work. So if there’s going to be a problem, you have to suss that out ahead of time. You know, we have a ticking clock for our event to go live. and there’s people that show up and, and, you know, vendors that are there that, you know, hitting that, hitting that mark is, is super important.

And being able to get through that efficiently. is important to the success of any of our campaigns. Mm

Chip Griffin: hmm. Yeah. You know, that ticking clock, I think, is an interesting piece of the puzzle here, right? Because events are different from other things where, you know, you can push back a product launch if you want.

You can push back a lot. Right. But events, you know, You know, once you’ve got it out there on the calendar, you can’t do it. I mean, I got my start in politics and we had election day, right? Election day doesn’t move, right? So, so you knew you had that hard deadline and I think that it’s, it can be a fantastic environment to work in because you learn the importance of sticking to a timeline.

Dan HIrsch: Yeah, it’s also what makes kind of the world, the work we’re in and the world we’re in a little fun, you know, I mean, it is a pressure cooker, but it also bonds our people, I mean, you know, the people that do events that succeed in events, love it and others that try to enter the business that are not, you know, that, that don’t.

work well in that kind of pressure cooker, they leave quickly and it’s the wrong business for them. But the ones that stay, they build bonds and it’s, it’s like being in the trenches. You know, it’s like going to war with your buddies. You know, you’re up all night, 36 hours working through something and you, you get really close with people, you know, much closer than you would in, in a normal circumstance.

Chip Griffin: And, and, I mean, actually that’s, that’s a great segue to the last thing I want to talk about today, which is, you know, how have you worked on, you know, keeping the team together, you know, keeping team spirits up, you know, over the last year as, you know, the environment has been so different. I would imagine that in the past you had, you know, not only your team perhaps in offices, but also you were at events together and things like that.

There were a lot of opportunities for the team to bond. How have you. How have you built upon that over the last year?

Deb Lemon: Well, when I came into OBE, culture was kind of my thing coming from Nike, had a great culture. I had to fight tooth and nail with Dan. That’s one of the things I won in our, one of our discussions about, look, I mean, you know, we’re a small business and being able to compete, we can compete on culture of what, you know, enhancing the culture and the environment that you work in.

Right. And, you know, the things that we’ve done, I mean, we would have off sites that we, we, you know, in January, a year ago, before the pandemic, we flew a hundred people to Cabo because we hit our sales goals and we took all a hundred people there and had a great time. You know, four days in Cabo. and so our team really would get revived, energized, excited, got to know people they didn’t know, worked in different offices.

and so for us through the pandemic, you know, it was really, you know, a little touch and go at the beginning because we didn’t, we’re like, we’re live events. What’s going to happen? And so we ended up doing listening sessions. So people could talk through any of the issues of the day with the politics, with, you know, racial inequality, any of that kind of stuff.

and then we moved into, you know, OBE well, we created a wellness, That would have a workout once a week that we could get on a sound bath or meditation or an actual boot camp. and then, you know, going into these competitions to see how many points, you know, miles we can get to get people out.

Cause our teams are very competitive. So we mix up the teams and then we try to see how many points we can get. Going forward, so those are some of the things that we’ve done. and then Dan, maybe you could talk about the, the, offsite. We just did with that new platform that we tried out.

Dan HIrsch: Yeah, so we’ve been working with different platforms and using that as, opportunities for us to learn on new platforms as well.

it was more of a virtual environment platform. I’m spacing the name of the platform right now, but I can, I can send it to you later. and it was, you know, it’s not ready for prime time, with our clients yet, but it was a great learning experience for us to figure it out. and we’ve also started something called the lunch with leadership.

that we just launched a couple of months ago, and it’s really just an opportunity to, you know, every month we change out, the, the group. So it’s, the leadership team, which is 9 of us, and we’ll take about 6 or 7 people each from the company, and we just set up a lunch where we, you know, kind of, There’s no agenda.

We’re not talking business necessarily. We’re just checking in on each other. We’re getting an opportunity to learn about each other. What’s going on in their life. What are they doing? How are they doing? Are they, you know, are they, they depressed? They good, you know, and just talk as if you were in an office environment and you were out to lunch with your friends or somebody.

And then it was just an opportunity for us to, to, to kind of connect and stay in touch again when, when you can’t, and also make sure that we’re, we’re. communicating to each other and seeing what’s going on with each other. So,

Chip Griffin: well, that’s great. I think that’s, that’s, you know, very helpful to share that experience with other agency owners who are listening, because I know everyone’s trying to find different ways that they can keep the teams engaged, until the point where everybody gets to gather in person again.

So, well, this has been a great conversation, Dan and Deb, I really appreciate you taking the time to, to be with me and share your experiences. no pun intended, with the audiences. If, if folks want to learn more about onboard experiential, where should they go?

Dan HIrsch: www.obexp.com.

Chip Griffin: Excellent. Well, thank you very much for joining me today.

Again, my guests today have been Dan Hirsch and Deb Lemon.

You’ve been listening to Chats with Chip for more information about this show or to listen to previous episodes, visit chatswithchip. com.