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The hiring challenge for agencies today

On this episode of the Small Agency Talk Show, Chip Griffin is joined by Patrick Rogan of Ignition HR and Lee McKnight Jr. of RSW/US to talk about the difficulties that many agencies are currently having in filling open positions.

The trio explore why the challenge exists — and how to effectively address it without making compromises in the quality of your team or giving up on new business opportunities.


The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin  00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Small Agency Talk Show. I’m Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance. And I am very happy to have with me two good friends Patrick Rogan of Ignition HR, and Lee McKnight Jr. of RSW/US. Welcome to the show, guys.  Thank you.  Happy to be here.  It is good to have you both here. Lee, I noticed you’ve taken off your glasses that you had on in the pre show which between the blue shirts and the glasses, and we we were starting to look look like we had somehow coordinate here and you’re gonna have to tell the difference by just looking at our hair lines. Yeah, no hairline, half a hairline, and a stinking full head. I

Lee McKnight  00:46

said, guys, that’s the name of the show.

Chip Griffin  00:50

But yes, I’m sure I’m sure that people are tuning in for the eye candy that is that is that I’m confident in saying on this Friday afternoon in the middle of the summer. If you are tuning in right now I appreciate it. If you have questions or comments that you’d like to share, please use the chat box on whatever platform you’re watching on. If you’re watching this on replay, just go ahead and use the comments. And I will go ahead and reply to those as well. But we’re going to jump right into the show today because we have an important topic. And it’s one that is challenging. A lot of agencies right now, and that is hiring and in small agencies in particular, I think are having a hard time finding those junior to junior mid level employees those with say less than, you know, eight or 10 years of experience. And this is a real challenge, because agencies are starting to see, as we’ve talked about on previous episodes increases in the amount of new business in their pipeline. And they’re panicking. They’re saying how can I fulfill this work if I can’t do the hiring that I need to do? So I know from our conversations that you both agree this is a problem. So we’re gonna sit here and spend the next 28 minutes or so solving it for our listeners?

Lee McKnight  02:00

Yeah, yeah. So it’s an issue for sure. And so

Chip Griffin  02:06

how do we solve it, though? I mean, if we agree it’s an issue. It’s it’s something that we’ve seen, we’ve all seen across geographies. It’s not, you know, this is not limited to just the big cities or something like this. It is it is, across the board, something that the agencies are struggling with. So how do you solve that Lee? How do you when you’re talking with the agencies that you’re working with? And they’re saying, gosh, you know, we just, you know, we’d love to be able to generate some new business. But if we do, what’s going to happen to us? I mean, how do you counsel them? Yeah,

Lee McKnight  02:35

yeah. And I think you know, it’s interesting, I, we’ve mentioned it when we were talking previously, I was just looking at two articles. In the last week for Forbes, people are fleeing the ad industry because of burnout and wanting to work from home. And at age four days ago, marketers are quitting their jobs, why the industry should brace for an exodus. And when we talk this, I think there’s two separate things going on, right, both of those articles when you read through the big, the big agencies predominantly what they’re talking about, which is not a huge shock, even pre pandemic, in terms of getting hurt out. Right. And but, you know, then moving forward to your question, Jeff, you know, and how do you solve it, not seeing that as much right on the small agency side, which is where, you know, we predominantly focus, you’ll do as well, but it’s not the burnout is quite the opposite. They’re tending to stay. So that’s one thing is keeping those folks there. Right. But the other is, you know, in terms of the and especially the account management position, I know that’s having trouble wheat, and I just mentioned you all, I mean, we had a big interest in using our services and said, you know, what, if we get any more new business right now, we could not fulfill it, we have in the middle about four key positions right now. And we know we should be starting that well, continuing the new business engine. And we it because you do that when you’re flush, with with all the work, that’s when you should be starting something like that, and they just can’t do it. So, you know, I think it’s definitely two things to think about. Right? And I’ve kind of brought this up to is retaining those employees. Number one, those rockstars who aren’t looking but in the market, it’s just insane. And then also, how do you attract these folks? Because, you know, and what are these agencies willing to do? Now? Post pandemic, but let’s, let’s say we’re, we’re getting out of it. Right. And we keep saying that make every show? Like,

Chip Griffin  04:26

we’ve been saying that for months now. Lee?

Lee McKnight  04:27

Yeah. But you know, you really have to think about and I think a lot of small firms were but and have the ability to attract these folks, when you’re thinking about the work for home situation, and worse, what are some of the other ways you can retain and or attract some of these employees that that some of these bigger agencies, maybe you’re having trouble with?

Chip Griffin  04:47

And that’s a great point that you have to start with retention, right. First is sort of like the the doctor say first, do no harm. You need to make sure that that you don’t make your hiring problem worse by doing things that are going to alienate your existing team. And we’ve talked about that on some of the recent episodes, as well. And how do you handle some of the concerns or requests that your existing employee base may have? Yeah. But Patrick, as you’re, as you’re talking with clients and helping them through the hiring process, you know, how do you how do you go about finding people in a labor market? Like what we’re seeing now? And do you have to change any of your normal processes or behaviors?

Patrick Rogan  05:27

Well, it’s the concept of recruiting is something that in a lot of my clients, it’s like an on or off again, thing. And what I found is that with recruiting, there’s a whole lot of inertia there. So if you stop recruiting, it’s kind of at your own peril, because starting it back up again, just takes a huge amount of effort. So in a perfect world, right, it would be great if we could just hire someone to find any hole that we have in our organization, and we could afford to pay the fee for them to do that. The reality is, there are certain positions where that totally makes sense. But for a lot of positions, we need to find an inner way to do that we either need to use our resources or resources of our staff or our colleagues to help us find the talent that we need. And we need to do it in an affordable way that fits our budget. And I think the first step is by not ever turning off recruiting, but always be looking for new talent, particularly in a down market. Think about it, it’s a perfect time to find a Rainmaker, right, you know, that, you know, you could potentially get when you couldn’t, in a hot market, and in a hot market, for heaven’s sake, you can’t lose talent, because you got ton of work, and you know, and you want to keep it up. So So from a high level, I think the most important thing is never, ever, ever stop looking for talent. And, and we can go into details in terms of what that means, you know, conceptually, it’s, there are a lot of steps to it. And for an agency owner, it you have to do this yourself, like you can’t, you can’t just outsource it, and and we’ll go over, we can go over some of the steps that are involved. But But essentially, you know, it’s kind of like eating an elephant. How do you do that? Well, you start one bite at a time, you know, and if every day you’re taking a bite or two, and you’re you’re you’re moving the needle, that i think that’s that’s a good way to, to stay up in front of it and kind of prepared for unforeseen things that may happen down the road in terms of either losing existing staff or bringing in new business that you had anticipated as well to each of those are surprises with the same outcome from a talent.

Chip Griffin  07:39

Yeah, and I think that the always be recruiting mindset is an important one. Because as you point out, you know, if it’s a difficult labor market, it makes it easier. And if it’s, if it’s a good labor market, then maybe you find some, some goodbyes, if you will. But I you know, what I’ve seen is that a lot of agency owners tend to do that much better when they’re looking at the more senior positions, because typically, once you become an owner, that’s your network, right? You’re not typically networking with, you know, the AV level, folks. And so, you know, how do you? How are you always recruiting and achieving that I like one of the things you said, Patrick, about using your team to help in the recruiting process, because your team is a huge asset. And your team knows people like themselves. And and and that’s good and bad, right? It’s good, because it means that if they’re high quality players, you can get more high quality players like them. There is of course, the research that suggests that also tends to lead to less diverse teams and things like that. So you know, we do have that counter pressure. But right now, it’s really just about filling the slots. You know, the, you want to have the higher ideals in mind, but at the same time, you got to get butts in seats, right?

Patrick Rogan  08:45

Yeah, absolutely. And setting that expectation, and teaching the skills that your employees need to reach out to their networks are things that certainly are in your best interest as an agency owner, but they’re also in your employees best interest, because as they’re reaching out in their networks to potentially find new hires for your agency, they’re also building their network for their needs down the road, too. So that’s a good, that’s a good skill to have. It’s a good muscle to exercise. And they are going to have networks that are going to fit the type of people you want to hire. You know, if you have account managers, and they’re reaching out to their network, showing them how to do that, whether it’s through LinkedIn or other social media sites, helping them understand how that works, and letting them know that they’re contributing to the future of your agency. those actions may seem like kind of like a pain and off the mark in terms of what you have to do for the day, but they are critical for the future of the practice and my experiences. employees take a lot of ownership in that when when I refer someone to work for your agency and my agency as your employees That I have a vested interest. I’ve got skin in the game now and I want to make sure that person is going to be successful in that role. You can compensate them financially. And I do recommend some type of compensation. But that’s not the reason why they’re going to do it. They’re not going to do it for $500 or $150. Wherever you want to pay them, they’re going to do it because they want to contribute. Does that make sense?

Chip Griffin  10:22

Yeah. Well, you’ll be surprised at how many do it for the money to it doesn’t hurt. I’ve had I’ve had that discussion with employees in the past on their show, if we hire them, does that mean I get my check? Okay, let’s let’s get through the hiring process first. But so so Lee, one of the things that that I’ve been struck by over the years, and I often tell people is that there’s real overlap between your specialty business development and recruiting. I mean, they are, they’re fundamentally similar processes, because you are trying to find the right candidates, whether that’s a client or an employee, and you’re trying to sell them on your agency as the right fit for them. So you know, how can you take advantage of, of everything that you’ve done as an agency owner in growing the business and business development, apply some of those principles to hiring?

Lee McKnight  11:07

It’s good question. Also, I’m still thinking about eating the elephant, just to throw that out there. get past it.

Chip Griffin  11:12

I haven’t had lunch yet. Have you?

Lee McKnight  11:17

thought well, so one of the things like to key off what Patrick said, you know, the number one being always always be recruiting, which I 100% agree with, which is what we are always trying to do I mean, it we have the same hard job in that scenario that agencies do, in the sense of, you know, we are trying to find experience, people are in beds or new business director sales, people have about 15 to 20 years sales experience, on average, this won’t be commercial for us, don’t worry. But I say that because sincerely. It’s tough to find those people the same weight as for agency, so we had to be going through that process. And I would put, if that’s number one, I would add a number to which starts to answer your question ship in terms of, you got to be willing to go at least think about, and it’s a somewhat unique problem to smaller agencies, be willing to hire, you know, out of state, which is not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination, but I especially think post pandemic, while we all work from home, that culture is so important to small and mid sized agencies to all agencies. It is of course, but you know, you you, it’s kind of an interesting issue where if you have a team of 15, or 30? Are you I know, the answer is yes, because I’ve talked to agency owners and principals who are kind of worried about that, hey, look, we went through this, we can work remotely. But at the same time, I know that collaboration in person is meaningful, and we don’t want to lose that. But that hiring, I mean, we went through this about eight months before pandemic hit. We always said, We want people we want everyone here in Cincinnati, so that we can huddle up, you know, we can have those conversations, whether it’s with a client or whatever it is. And you know, we realized that since night is a great town a lot, you know, not a huge city, but a city nevertheless, and we’re still going to have to go outside. And then we’re just going to think that this is, you know, center that we’re living in now. And this is what new hires expect. And so it was the transition was a was fairly smooth, which was great. And we try to keep it regional. But I think it’s one thing that agency principles are definitely gonna have to think about and figure out a way to balance that with culture and with hiring. And I think most of them are finding ways to do that. But I still talk to others were pretty adamant. Like, we really want to kind of everybody, maybe not in the office all the time. But to have those painful days where we’re all there together, and that that’s going to get tougher to do I think,

Chip Griffin  13:38

yeah, I think, you know, thinking through the flexibility that you need to have, you know, when you’re in this kind of a labor market and thinking about, you know, what kind of exceptions to your normal approach would you take are the normal requirements that you might have? And, Patrick, this is, I’m sure something that that you’ve worked with clients on, you know, how do you how do you bend without breaking? How do you, you know, adapt your process for the current environment, and not lose everything that you built up? not take too many, you know, unnecessary risks in your hiring process?

Patrick Rogan  14:12

Yeah, I find that the the best way is to not skip any steps. So there’s talent attraction, which is just finding someone that you think might be a fit for your role, that piece should never stop over time. There is managing someone through the cycle of determining if you’re a fit for them, and vice versa. And that’s the piece that I think should stay pretty constant in terms of how do you interview How do you share information are you selling as well as asking questions, who’s involved in the interview process, who’s going to be extending the offer when it gets to that point? How’s that process going to work? I think it’s important to have that piece really, really buttoned up. Because on that first piece, which is the elephant piece, you know, in finding the the end attracting And getting someone potentially to the table, whether they’re local or outside of the area. That piece is the most time intensive and the most critical. And I think that’s what most organizations are missing. But for heaven’s sakes, when you’ve had success with that, don’t lose them. Because your process is just sort of haphazard and doesn’t have any structure to it. Because that is something that that potential new hire is going to be looking at you in terms of how your organization is going to run, the way you recruit me, is the way I assume you run your organization. That’s scary, right?

Chip Griffin  15:37

I mean, one of the challenges the small agencies have is they don’t, they don’t have an HR department, they often don’t even have a full time admin person. So a lot of times the hiring process does become meandering, not because they have any, any intent to drag it out. But because the you know, the the owners, the leaders are trying to manage existing clients and keep the pipeline moving, and all these things. And so you’re trying to balance all of the demands on your time. But, you know, it strikes me that in times like these, you need to be particularly cognizant of not letting that process slow down so much that you’re losing valuable talent, because they see you, you know, perhaps dragging their heels or perhaps because, you know, they started looking, they started interviewing and someone else jumped in with an offer before yours, even though maybe yours would have been the one they would have taken if it was timely. Yeah.

Lee McKnight  16:23

I had a question for both of you. You told me how much importance to place against this. I just know, from at least a few folks in the agency world that we’re looking how important glasper is when you look at I think sometimes agency principals never think about it, or don’t look at it. And I’ll look through sometimes what because my part of my job is to reach out and get agency clients for us. And there’s some horrendous things on there, like, yeah, the owners this agency, but it’ll go off like this is a horrible, blah, blah, horrible place to work. Don’t do it. I know, I know, people look at that. And I don’t know how much importance I would place. But I would certainly if you’re an agency principal, you’re gonna you want to look at that. Right? And but you all tell me, I mean, how important that truly is. I mean, there’s some there’s some bad stuff. The principal don’t know it. And you need to be looking in the mirror. If that’s the case, and you always have disgruntled employees that maybe you’re trying to throw you under the bus? And that’s not fair. But maybe not.

Chip Griffin  17:22

I think that’s the that’s the challenge with Glassdoor, right. I mean, Glassdoor historically, has has attracted disgruntled employees, for the most part, generally, the happy employees don’t go on Glassdoor and leave comments. And, and generally speaking, when employers have tried to get their happy employees to do that, it doesn’t, it doesn’t tend to go as well as they would imagine. But I think you absolutely need to be cognizant of the sea. I was gonna try to take Patrick out of the stream here, but I can’t figure out how to do that without blowing it up. So in any case, you visible Patrick, there we go, Patrick. Patrick’s got to deal with a dog issue. So it is what it is, you get to see more of Lee and me. So you know, I think that the the the challenge with with Glassdoor is that you need to be aware of it and your recruiting process ought to account for any themes that are coming up in there. So if it’s if it’s if it’s talking about, you know, the fact that it’s you know, it’s a sweatshop and you’re being asked to work, you know, crazy hours and all that kind of stuff, you know, then you need to be, you know, speaking to that in your interview process, maybe not defensively, or certainly not defensively, you don’t want to say, Well, you know, if you read Glassdoor, you’ll see it says we’re not really that, but your your process needs to address those concerns, to try to alleviate them, because job seekers are absolutely looking at it. You know, unfortunately, there’s not a lot you can do to really alter, you know, what’s there and it is largely populated by those disgruntled employees who, you know, they see things through their lens, and it didn’t work out for them. And so it’s, it’s unlikely they’re going to have a lot of nice things to say, Yeah,

Patrick Rogan  19:00

I find the majority of clients that I talked to about glass door, haven’t looked at it at all. So when someone makes a comment about you know, I read this on glass door, they’re kind of like, Really? Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like from, from a business perspective, there’s, there are no ups. There’s no real upsides unless you get hugely positive reviews, but some organizations have companies have, but more often than not, it’s mitigating risk. And I do think taking an active role, sometimes addressing and in a positive way can be helpful, but but at least be aware.

Lee McKnight  19:39

And there’s nothing wrong with chip to your point. I mean, I’m sincerely asking this I mean, to say to your employees, it truly if you like working here, would love I’m encouraging you to post something positive on Glassdoor if you don’t want to do not do it. I’m not saying you need to do it, but it would help the company it will help the firm there’s nothing wrong with it. Doing that inherently. Is there? I mean,

Chip Griffin  20:02

no, there’s there’s nothing wrong with it. I just really haven’t seen it work out. No, I

Lee McKnight  20:05

agree. It’s good. People do it. Yeah. And it’s not. Yeah. And I, you know, I think some would would do it if asked. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you’re right. And it’s, I mean, there’s not spend too much time on this. But there is you can, like, petition them to get something removed. Right and make a case, it doesn’t mean it’s gonna happen. Is that correct? I think I’ve heard I don’t know

Chip Griffin  20:24

if that’s true or not. But most of these platforms a lot. I’m not specifically familiar with what their policy is. But I’m sure. You know, and, and, you know, at the end of the day, you know, most of the time at least that I’ve seen the negative stuff, there’s there is an element of truth to what is being said, it’s just being carried to an extreme. Right. And so, you know, I think if you’re, if you’re the first step is to be aware of it, right. And a lot of owners may not even know that Glassdoor exists, or at least they’re not looking actively at their own profiles there. And so you absolutely need to be doing that. So you know, what’s out there. And you know, the things that you have to combat? Yeah, just, you know, let’s flip this around. Because we’re, you know, we’re talking about the the red flags that Glassdoor may give about the employer that may be holding things back. But how should How should employers be agencies be looking at, you know, red, yellow, orange flags that are coming up in the interview process? Should they be less choosy than they they might often be? I mean, is this is this sort of like you’re going to the Superbowl? And so all the hotels are booked up? And so you stay in a place you might not stay with? Otherwise? Should you be hiring someone right now? Because you need, you need the manpower? You need the hours, Matt? And so you might take a risk that you wouldn’t have taken six months ago, and six months ago, you might have said, Well, we can drag this out for a little bit.

Lee McKnight  21:41

I mean, the reality is, it’s going to happen, right? The market stays this way. It’s just, it’s just going to unfortunately, right. I mean,

Chip Griffin  21:49

well, I think I think some agencies hold back their growth intentionally, because they’re not comfortable with doing that. Right. And so I, you know, there is, there is certainly the philosophy, you know, I want to keep growing. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna bring in anybody I can, or almost anybody I can, but but there are I know, from some of the agency owners I talk with, they’re, they’re intentionally delaying taking on new business even committed new business, because they don’t want to hire someone who is not what they view as an ideal hire. And I think, from where I said, I think you need to be Well, two things. And Patrick, you and I have talked about this a lot in the past, if you’re going to hire, you need to be comfortable with firing. And so if you can wrap your mind around that outlook, it becomes a lot easier to take reasonable risks in hiring, because the reality is, no organization is great at hiring. It’s just I mean, even the best organizations have a very high failure rate on new hires, even if they may not, they may not terminate them. No, they’re not they realize months in this is not, you know, we didn’t do the best job we could have with this slot. So to me, you have to be clear with yourself about what the red flag is versus what you know, the yellow or orange flags are, and take some reasonable risks, really, not just now really anytime, because if you’re comfortable with the idea that you’ll let them go if it’s not a good fit. Why not?

Patrick Rogan  23:15

I would say even a step further, your employees to find your brand brand is defined as how other people see you, right? You can you can influence it, but you can’t dictate it, it is determined by others, and who you hire in, has a significant impact on your brand and how they work for your clients and what they do in the work that you do. My biggest fear is that when an agency makes a hiring decision out of desperation, and I’ve never seen that work out, well, that always works out. And there’s sometimes it’s delayed, but you know, what’s coming? And that’s where I would say, Chuck, what you were talking about before about maybe making a decision to hold off new business, because I don’t have the quality of staff that I think I need to do that piece of work. I think that might be a better decision than pulling the trigger on something that you know, is probably not going to work out. Well. That’s the one area where I use this like Lisa Yeah.

Chip Griffin  24:17

And I think there’s there’s a big difference between desperation and reasonable risk, right. Yes. And, and you need to figure out where that line is. And I you know, Lee, I’m, I’m sure you’re cringing at the idea of agencies turning away new business are slowing down their pipeline. And, and, and I sit here and I say, you know, now is a time where a lot of agencies are seeing that increased demand. And you you really want to take advantage of that if you can, because you don’t know how long it’s going to last. We don’t know what the next six 912 months or more holes. And so if you’ve got the opportunity to grow now, you really ought to try to find a way to take advantage of it, I think,

Lee McKnight  24:56

no, it’s never been true whether whether it’s a group like ours or However you’re doing it and it’s self serving, but it is 100%. True. I mean, stopping that new business engine just never works out, right? Because what it turns into we talked about this operation, you know, there’s nothing worse than we’ve taught, I’ve taught, but I think maybe we have no prospecting behind the eight ball or new business when you’re desperate. Yep, that’s when you take on clients that you shouldn’t. And, you know, it’s easy to say I know, but it’s, it’s you know, when when things are going well is when you should be driving new business. And it’s very hard to do and easy for me to say, and I, you know, one of the things that you mentioned, Chip, and in our video series that we do, I touched on it just a couple of weeks ago, because I’ve heard of now three instances of talking about not being willing to fire folks, in those situations that you mentioned, which I 100% agree with. But I’ve talked to these these agencies about over the last six weeks, where the pandemic helped us a little bit because everyone was home. But you have those employees who are toxic. Yep, who should be fired. But specifically, the ones that are mentioned, this are the rock stars, like, we can’t lose them right now. But my God, we need to that’s another layer. And I’ve seen some smaller agencies that are dealing with it right now. And at the end of the day, it’s like, how important is your culture? And because of the way the market is, do you want to lose other employees because of that employee, which could very well happen, right? Because now people are starting to go back in the office, and it’s gonna become a bigger problem, or the problem that it was before. And that I’m not sure how you solve that, other than the fact that sometimes you got it, you got to do what you have to do and think about the overall wellness of the firm. But that’s a tough, that’s a tough road, right?

Chip Griffin  26:38

I mean, and that’s a problem that agency world has had forever, right? You’ve always had, you know, sort of the the prima donna toxic employee who, you know, either generates a lot of business or keeps clients really happy, or generates a lot of press or, you know, those kinds of things. And historically, agencies have given them a lot of latitude or to behave poorly. And I think that that that is something that there is much less tolerance for amongst today’s workforce. And so as you point out, you know, if you could avoid it while you were remote, now you can’t as you’re coming back to the office, and so it absolutely becomes an even more magnified problem now, because you’re like, well, geez, you know, I realized what it was like to work without that in my office. Right? Now, I got to deal with it again. So Patrick, how do you how do you balance those out? And how do you figure out, you know, when you need to just, you know, cut loose an employee who is a rock star, from performance standpoint, but toxic from, you know, an employee interaction standpoint.

Patrick Rogan  27:40


Chip Griffin  27:44

in 60 seconds or less,

Patrick Rogan  27:46

more than once, and certainly recognizing you have a toxic employee is step number one, right? And what I find is that, the worst thing you can do is nothing. Because when you do nothing, that that toxic employee behavior becomes like a cancer, like it becomes the new norm for the organization. So it won’t be long before you see it in other places in your organization, maybe from people you never believed would behave that way. All of a sudden, this is this is spreading. So the first thing that I usually recommend agency CEOs or principals do is acknowledge it right? First step, I have a problem. And this is it. This The second step is put together a plan on how you’re going to resolve this one way or the other. If you think you can fix it and get on it fast. If you think you can’t fix it, then what is going to be the plan for getting this person out of your organization, maybe. And in most cases today, unless something really horrible happen today is not the day that this is going to be solved. But what it is or someone you’re going to hire that is there someone on staff or you’re grooming to get into that role. Is there someone you need to be hiring from the outside, that that you can grow into that role? Is there someone on the outside who could actually do that role tomorrow, make sure you understand all of those factors and put together a plan in terms of how you’re going to get those to a better place. But please, don’t be a victim. Don’t just say there’s nothing I can do. And I’ve seen this happen more than once. In year after year after year after year, this same cancer is festering in your organization. Please don’t do that.

Chip Griffin  29:25

I am happy to say that neither of you is a toxic panelist. And I think that that we’ve come together for a very productive episode. Hopefully folks have gotten a lot of good ideas as they’re trying to solve their own recruiting challenges. Patrick, if someone if someone would like to, Oh, I forgot it’s prop time. You know. Can you tell us about your property so it’s happening kerfing dress uniform? It’s got expensive duds with the boots. Yeah. Ron, it would not be a small agency talk show with Lehman. He without a problem, so sorry, I had to do it. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Patrick if someone would like your help on anything from hiring to firing and anything in between where can they find you?

Patrick Rogan  30:10

Really easy on ignition HR calm.

Chip Griffin  30:14

Excellent. And Lee if someone is interested in learning about your props, or probably more interestingly about the business development services that you provide, how can they find you?

Lee McKnight  30:25

props can wait yeah, Rs w us comm you’re actually launching a new website in about three weeks. This time,

Chip Griffin  30:33

look forward to it. And of course, be sure to sign up for the YouTube channel as well, because they’re always great videos that you’re putting out as well. Of course, you want to learn more about saga just go to small agency growth.com. If you want to see replays of this or any other episode go to small agency.tv. And finally, we have an all new saga community that just came out in the last week we’ve consolidated all the different community functions on a new platform. It is still free to join though. So go to the saga community.com and sign up there. Well, everybody. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Patrick and Lee for participating in today’s panel. I look forward to having both of you back soon. As all forward to having the viewers back next week.

Patrick Rogan  31:17

Like so. Thanks

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