While the current crisis may be nothing like any of us has seen before, Carl Smith of the Bureau of Digital has been through a serious economic downturn and knows how it can impact running a business. He joins Chip on this episode to talk about the impact on the agency community.
Carl discusses how he is having to reinvent his own business of helping digital agencies, as well as how the community he has created is supporting each other. You’ll hear a lot of creative ideas that you may be able to use as you look for the path forward for your own agency in the months ahead.
The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.
CHIP: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Chats with Chip podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. And my guest today is Carl Smith with the Bureau of Digital. Welcome to the show, Carl.
CARL: Thanks, Chip. I appreciate it.
CHIP: It is great to have you here. Our topic maybe not as great because we’re talking about the current environment, which is just a little bit challenging. But you know, you have to you have to have a little bit of fun along the way, too. It’s B to two, guys.
CARL: It’s so depressing.
CHIP: Yeah. Well, Carl, but before we jump into our conversation, which hopefully will not be depressing, but instead will provide some useful insights for agency listeners. But what can you tell us about the Bureau of digital? What do you guys do?
CARL: Sure. So the Bureau was founded in 2012. And it was because generally, digital shops don’t know how to operate as a business. Most of us started as hobbyists, we maybe we had a band and we started building websites and we made more money with the websites in the band. I was a theater major. You never know how these things are going to happen. So the bureau started with people just sitting down I’m talking and getting smarter together. Today, we’re over 8000 people in the community, which is always weird to say. And we have a growing group of people over on the team side, which is in house. So got a lot of people in Silicon Valley, West Coast area, and then we’ve got shops all over the world. So it’s a, just a bunch of people getting together to help each other all the live long day.
CHIP: And that’s really needed today. You know, this is we’re certainly in an environment where lots of folks need help. And I think the fortunate thing is, a lot of people want to come together and help each other. Figure out how to, to navigate the current situation, even though a lot of us don’t necessarily have an answer, because nobody’s seen anything quite like this before. We have no idea how long it’s gonna last or what the bottom looks like. But, you know, we couldn’t we can all lend each other a helping hand in the meantime. And certainly, once we see the other side, we’ll we’ll all be in a much better shape if we help each other out.
CARL: All right. Totally agree. And it’s funny because I’ve had people ask me how long I think this is gonna last. I’m like, do you want me to patch in the CDC? I don’t know what to tell you. They don’t know either. So, no, but you’re right. It’s like there’s never been a better time to understand and have a powerful community that’s going to help each other. And that’s, I mean, our slack channels. First of all, I got to give slack props. They gave us the 90 days upgrade. So we got all the backlog and we had 200,000 messages in there. We were losing messages every four days. You can’t lose messages right now, because people need this and the activity is going to 40% of people just asking each other. How are you doing? How are you getting through this? What do I do with this situation?
CHIP: Right? Yeah. And I think you know, having people to ask for help and to share your experiences with is really powerful when you’re dealing with any kind of crisis but particularly this one that is so Uncharted, you can’t pick up a book and see how to handle this. This is, you know, we’re all building the plane.
CARL: We are
CHIP: and it’s and most agencies, you know, whether you’re PR or Digital or marketing or advertising? You’ve seen a lot of change to your business just in the last two weeks.
CARL: Oh, yeah. And if you went through 2008 you’re like trying to figure it out compared to that, or I mean, like for us, we started right after 911. So that was like not not the Bureau, but when I was running my shop, so that was like a bizarre time and I was like, This is the bottom. Let’s start now. Right? Right. 2008 people avoiding layoffs, having layoffs. But the difference here is some shops are actually doing really well. Other shops seem to be maintaining and some shops kind of hosed. Yep. So it’s like to watch them all talk to each other you realizing that depending on your services and your industry, that has a lot to say with how you’re going to come through this.
CHIP: But absolutely as it makes a huge difference. And and I think the the challenges that if you’re in one of the buckets, you don’t necessarily think about those who are in the other ones, right. So if you’re, if you’re one of those agencies that’s lost a ton of business or had a lot of projects put on hold sort of feel like this is how it must be for everybody. And then you hear you know that someone’s going gangbusters because they are in an industry right now that just needs the help that you know, that is really pushing ahead. You sort of scratch your head. And so, you know, I but I think seeing those different experiences is really powerful because there are plenty of industries that are doing very well today. In fact, I was watching CNBC earlier today and the president of soya beans was on and talked about how their business is up 40% in the last three weeks,
CARL: there you go,
CHIP: which probably explains why we’re selling so much toilet paper these days, but
CARL: it could be and also, I still don’t understand that whole part. I’m not gonna get into it. No, my wife shops at Costco, I looked in the garage. I
was like, we’re good for a while. So
CHIP: because we couldn’t get any hay. So we’ve got a couple of weeks of supply because we don’t we don’t generally stock that it doesn’t seem like the kind of things you need to you know, have a warehouse full of but apparently now you do.
CARL: Want me to tell you it’s a sweet Apply so you let me know hook. Yeah.
CHIP: Excellent. Well, at least it’s not that commercial one ply, which is just like sandpaper. So bad
anyway, we get that. Yeah.
But you know, I think that what we have to remember and by looking at folks who are in different buckets, you know, we we have more empathy for those who are having challenges if we’re in the good bucket. And we also see that there are still opportunities out there, if we’re in the, you know, the more challenged buckets. So it’s our responsibility as business people and agency owners to figure out how it is that we take advantage of the opportunities that lie in front of us
CARL: well, and share that opportunity across. You know, I’ve said a lot of times that with the way digital shops work, it’s a lot like the film industry in the 20s. It was so much work that if universal, had people on the bench, MGM would call them and they’d send them over and we’re seeing that happen in the bureau right now. It’s like, if you’re a shop that has a lot of retail clients, not eecom but traditional brick and mortar retail, you’re probably seeing projects going on hold, right? If you’re in higher ed, you’re seeing projects get greenlighted. Because they need to improve their systems, because everybody’s going to be doing homeschooling, right. So when you’ve got a bunch of Drupal devs, on a bench over here, you can send them over there. So it’s like, that’s the kind of thing that we’re seeing start to happen, which is really magical to me. It shows what a great community can do, especially in a great industry.
CHIP: Yeah. And I think that, you know, that’s a that is a real opportunity for those agencies that either have a need for extra resources or that have the need to fill gaps, you know that bringing those together as you’re doing within your community is a really powerful tool right now. But that only happens if you’ve got folks who are being open about what their needs are, you know, what their challenges are.
CARL: And that’s very true. And that becomes one of the things when you’ve got we’ve got 2000 people in that Slack channel, right, and that there’s public channels or private channels, and it’s the private channels where I’m seeing people Do you really real? It’s the public channels where they’re sharing things they’ve learned. So it’s in the private channels, they know those people, or at least they have a shared experience. So yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. But I also hope everybody can, in the weeks ahead, let their guard down a little, because there’s so much goodwill. And as much as I’ve seen charlatans switching their growth coach, you know, moniker over to work from home coach. It’s like, as much as I’ve seen that sort of stuff happening, where they come on now, Don’t be a jerk. I also see a lot of people that are just trying to do the best they can for the community. I’ll tell you, what’s a huge thing that’s happening is if we hadn’t happened today, with one of our sponsors, I shared with them how we were shifting to our virtual events and all the plans for and how we’re still going to make it fun. It can be a karaoke night, there’s gonna be an open mic, you’re gonna love a chip. And they said, Can you help us with a shifting Rs? We know that that’s In the event space now we have a lot of agencies, that their clients are now working from home and they’ve never done it before. And they’re saying, Hey, we have this board meeting, we have no idea what we’re doing. Can you help us, hey, we want to make sure that we’re setting up the rate, interactive tools so that we can brainstorm remotely. A lot of shops are starting to see that with your existing clients. They may have projects that are slowing down, but they have consulting opportunities that are ramping up just in how we’ve worked in digital for a long time. I mean, at the Bureau, I want to say maybe 30% of the 4000 shops are fully distributed. But there’s a lot of remote, which is really a lot harder. So so just the lessons learned that are getting shared. I makes me know I’m in the right place.
CHIP: Well, I think that’s a it’s a great tip for an agency that that may be, you know, losing clients or having clients pause work is to look inward to your own expertise and figure out how can you tap the expertise that you do have perhaps in a different way than you You’ve been doing previously because, you know, every agency has a lot of really strong knowledge. And the solution right now isn’t you just kind of keep beating door down the same doors you
CARL: Come on, you know, I mean, the money we’re gonna go the stuff
CHIP: if you build websites right now is probably not the time to beat down the door of more restaurants and try to build the websites. Right. But unless
CARL: you have an amazing to go system if you can build for them an amazing e calm to go system column. Yeah.
CHIP: You know, but but there are still opportunities for you to think about, okay, what is the knowledge that I have? And how can I tap into that? And it’s, it’s probably not pivoting to building sites for higher ed. Maybe Yeah, but probably not.
CARL: But that’s it. You’re right, because people already are on that. Right. Right.
CHIP: And the problem is people flail, right, so that the instinct, oftentimes when you’re in a challenging situation is to flail around and just say, in fact, I had a client asked me this the other day, you know, what are some recession proof industries that I can get into now? No, First, first of all,
CARL: lipstick ice cream, right?
CHIP: Yeah, but but you know, just jumping to a brand new industry from what you’ve been focused on is not a solution Not gonna happen
CARL: and you’ve got people who know you and love you, and then you’ve got your own community, even if it’s not formalized. They’re gonna want to help you. So make sure you’re giving them that opportunity,
CHIP: right, and try to help them now. You know, figure out what it is that you have, you know, what knowledge do you have that you can help you can’t take the restaurant space, take what knowledge that you have, and try to help be helpful to that community now and build some goodwill that will help you in business development down the road.
CARL: Yeah, I totally agree. And you know, one interesting thing. I swear it feels like there have been 10 podcasts I’ve seen that have spun up on working from home just in the last couple of weeks. But the thing is, I know so many shops and so many people that I see all of these, a lot of theirs their groups might not a lot of their clients may not allow their shops might not. And I remember I was at a craft beer The Independent craft brewers conference courtesy of Greg coy. Thank you, Greg. And I saw this panel where there were different different people manufacturing beer on the panel, and one person said, we’ve got to stop ripping each other off. When one of us does a fruit scope, and everybody does a fruit sculpin. And another person said, You’re not available in my market. So I appreciate what you’re saying, but my people want this. So we’re gonna put our spin on it. I think it’s absolutely the same thing here with consulting or anything else, just because you see a lot of people out there doing it. That doesn’t mean the people that follow you or know you. Right, or hearing it. Yep. So So take that opportunity, give what you can give it and go for it and tailor it to the prospects that you need to be talking to to Yes, you know, just because there are 10 work from home podcasts that have been created. They approach it from different angles, they’re servicing perhaps different types of businesses. So, you know, try to find the solution that works for your audience. Yeah. And it strikes me and I’d be interested what you think, you know, it strikes me that that people should double down on their The typical audience as opposed to, you know, just trying to fish in a different pond. I totally agree. I mean, you’ve got a reputation, hopefully a good one. Now, if you get a bad rep, hey, shift over, yeah, but, but if you’ve got a good reputation, if you’ve done great work for people done it on time, they’re gonna feel for you, and they’re gonna want to help you. And it’s not that you’re manipulating people. You’re just, you know, some of that good that you’ve done, maybe it gets paid back. But you, you do have to find a way that it makes sense for them. And the thing is, I heard about Trump’s winning business today. Right? There’s still people winning business, this did not shut down. And sometimes your skills may be great, but you will see another stream that you can swim in. Right? It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible. And the other thing I’ll say is, if you know a lot of shops, and you’re talking to them, you can find out which ones are the best and maybe even get some referrals, because some of the shops that are really going doing well right now, they’re not gonna be able to do all the work, right.
CHIP: I think you know, one of the things to think about is how do you reinvent perhaps your delivery model your package Judges, you know, how do you come up with things that are that are more appealing to your target audience today that that fit what their current needs are? And, and I think, you know, part of that is listening, right having conversations with your, you, with your clients with your prospects to understand what are the gaps and how do you fill them? Yeah, I’d be particularly interested. I mean, you know, obviously, your business has been particularly focused on in person. A lot of folks are in the boat where they’re trying to figure out how do I how do I reinvent myself? So if you if you really been focused on in person, how do you reinvent yourself?
CARL: Well, you know, Hey, thanks for for picking it that open wound there, Chip. I appreciate it.
CHIP: No, seriously, this is this is I’ve been asked by a lot of folks because a lot of people in the agency community either do strategy sessions in person trainings or no conferences.
CARL: And I was I was joking a little bit, but the reality is, I had been working on what we could do, virtually which I always struggle with the word virtual because when you were a distributed team that sounded like your team didn’t exist, right? It’s not like the event doesn’t exist, right? But we’re struggling almost in an event, we’re almost used the language use the language that everybody uses. So with our virtual events, now, we want to have a tactile component. Now, we can’t do this until that’s okay. We don’t want to be insensitive, and send people stuff in the mail. Because right now, people are even nervous about getting deliveries, right? Yeah. But even the idea of something you can download, so let’s make sure that when we’re connecting, first of all, we’re giving ourselves a chance to connect on a human level, we normally have an opening reception, we’re still going to, and what we’re going to do is that that opening reception, initially, you’ll download, eventually you’ll get what we’re calling a bureau box, but you’re going to download some icebreaker cards, and you’re either going to have to sing a song, or you’re going to have to share something about yourself that nobody knows or some horrible thing and it’s strictly for the introverts. The extroverts we’re going to be fine, but the introverts can be like a Chuka, but it doesn’t matter. It’s like if we can make take this beyond that, we’re gonna have an open mic night. We’re going to invite people from the community to come in and other people can get up and to share whatever they want a lot more lightning talks. But the thing is, we have this amazing video system. But we’ve only used it in one way, we haven’t used it to truly engage. And once we can be okay with receiving something in the mail, we can do so much more for US Bureau box is going to have multiple boxes in it. So every time there’s a new session, you open up something new. And you can actually share that you wanted the event to be at the beach or in the mountains or you know, in a big city and your boxes will be themed to that. So let’s make it an adventure. Let’s keep the excitement and let’s make sure that also we still have the hallway conversations. We want to use slack to allow people to spin up direct calls when we’re having a snack break, which will be in your box. So lots of stuff.
CHIP: No, I think that’s a that’s a those are all great ideas. And you know, one of the takeaways I think from that is that when you’re when you’re looking to have to make some of these delivery pivots that you don’t just take a straight line and try to wrap Do exactly what you did before or do the easy thing, which in this case will be I will just spin up a webinar, you know, we’ll just go exactly
CARL: webinars are horrible. We all hate them. We hate giving them we hate listening to them, because there’s no energy. There’s no feedback. And that’s the other thing. It’s like the idea of a webinar, why not have a host of a webinar that’s hanging out? Right, you know, we’re going to show some, I’m calling it the Netflix model. But we’re going to have programming that other people have done that we’re friends with, and we’re going to DJ it. We’re going to put together you know, a team dynamics playlist. And then we’re going to introduce it, we’re going to do these types of things. So that there is energy and there is feedback. Also, the idea of if you’re having a big event, like our big events, digital pm summit, 350 people, we can’t do that right now. You know, maybe we’ll be able to do it in October when it’s originally scheduled. But what we’ll do is we’ll bring those speakers into one location again, once it’s okay to travel and have a small audience. But instead of To livestream by bringing a team to a venue, we can go to a venue, like a public broadcasting station, right? Where we can rent that and have a live audience and do all those types of things. So it’s, it’s time to get innovative. But the number one thing you have to do is make sure everybody can feel the energy of the other people, or else it’s just gonna die.
CHIP: Yeah. Well, I think that the willingness to be creative, the willingness to try things and see if it works. You know, I think you and I must have some sort of a secret mind meld even though we, we haven’t spoken before. But you know, I, I’m doing a virtual happy hour. Because, you know, people don’t have an opportunity to, you know, to do in person networking, and I was talking with someone said, you know, she’s, you know, really like a happy hour, right? And I said, Well, why don’t we just do a virtual one. So I scheduled a virtual happy hour, we’ll get a bunch of people together on zoom. And, you know, we’ll all drink cocktails and chat. You know,
CARL: any of the other amazing opportunity here is just like you’re saying, you’re inviting people into this. Well, when we have our camps, smaller person event, sometimes you’re in a breakout And nobody’s got an answer, like say it’s safe. We’re having a breakout on burnout, right? And all people have is compassion, but they don’t have an answer. Well, now we’re going to be able to bring in a special guest, because guess what Sherry walling might not have been able to get from the west coast to the east coast, but we can patch her in, right, you know, and so now every breakout can have a specialist, all these types of things, you have to take advantage of this opportunity were being given, instead of seeing it as a problem,
CHIP: right now. That’s that is great advice. No matter what your agency is doing and who you’re serving, you have the opportunity potentially, to serve more people now. If you think creatively about how you’re doing it, and, you know, it may be that you reinvent your service model to do it, you know, don’t don’t feel like you need to do things the way you’ve always done. And, and, you know, frankly, this is one of those opportunities. You know, if you’ve got something that says, you know, break glass in case of emergency, break that glass glass,
CARL: you got to break it right now. It’s so important. This is the emergency you’ve been waiting for. Right? And but You know, I and I think a lot of folks in the agency community are creative types, whether they’re a creative agency or not, they are, they are creative. It’s one of the things that draws people to this space. And so you let that creativity run loose right now, don’t feel like you need to follow one particular model, even if you’re listening to us don’t necessarily think that we’re giving you the right answer, you may have a whole different idea and run with that. And that works. Exactly. And what works for us might not work for you, I actually have this bracelet, I can show you chip, everybody else won’t be able to see it. It’s from a group called spark box who are really good friends of mine. And the bracelet says y m and V, which means your mileage may vary. And you know what they say that when they’re giving a talk about something they do, they will put YMV on the slide. Because they’re like, say we’re not saying this is the only way we’re just saying it work for us. And I would also you know, put that with all the stuff that I’m saying. I know it’s gonna work for us because I will be a force of nature to make this work chip. I’m gonna let this fail and I’m not gonna let the community down that just because we couldn’t see each other and we won’t be able to hug for like 12 years is what I’m hearing. We’re still gonna be okay. That
CHIP: is a win Personally, I’ve got hugging in meetings thing I never really got. I’m coming
CARL: over right now chip, I’m gonna hurt you. We’re gonna cuddle so hard, you’re not gonna believe it.
CHIP: It’s gonna be a long trip, and I don’t think you want to see the snow that’s on my lawn right now.
CARL: Well, given that it’s 80 degrees outside, I’ll stay here only because Cova 19 hates that he’d baby. That’s
CHIP: That’s what he said. He that’s what I hear. But I’m not sure I heard that from a scientist. So you know, I look, I think that, you know, one of the the things that we need to be having here is that same positive attitude that you’re exuding because I hear a lot of agency folks who are trying to figure out how do I survive? How do I get through this? And I think you have to look Yes, you have to be somewhat concerned about that. You have to think about, you know, how do you you know, plan for those kinds of things, but you really need to spend most of your time thinking about how do I take advantage of this? And I don’t know, taking advantage of Pete not not a bad way, but take advantage of the opportunities that are now in front of you. And find those new ways of doing things.
CARL: Your website, your damn websites, horrible. fix it. You have time. Right, right. Yeah. And this is something I want to share, because it’s something we’ve done. If you have a small business loan, call them we call American Express today, they’re giving us a 60 day grace period, no interest, and in 60 days, we call them and we can get it extended again, depending on our circumstances. Right. You I called for my daughter, her education loan, right? It’s like she’s at college and her financing. They said, You know what, we can give you 90 days grace period, no interest, no nothing. And it’ll just extend out the life of the loan for those 90 days. Do you want that? There are people who want to help you. Nobody wants to kill their business. Nobody wants to hurt the people that are helping them. And so it’s like Don’t just sit there, like a rhesus monkey without a baby rocking back and forth, right? It’s called people talk to people that everybody wants to help. You just have to ask.
CHIP: Right? And you need to do the same for them for your clients. Right? Absolutely. A lot of agencies right now we’re hearing from clients. It’s, you know, we’re having a really hard time. And, you know, some agency owners are immediately saying, Well, you know, we have a 3060 day cancellation period, you know, now’s the time to be human all around, you want people to be human to you. You need to be human to them, find that middle ground, find the way to make things work, because people will remember that six or 12 months down the road when we come through the other side.
CARL: Well, I think what you just said is so on point, because when you call your clients, the shops that I know that are proactively asking their clients, where are we are we going to move forward? How can we keep working together even under the context of what you have going on right now, and making it about them about the client there can When, like, even when we saw recessions or recession like times it was the shops that were flexible, that offer lower monthly pricing for a longer time, you know, whatever it might have been, they seem to thrive and come out really well. It was the shops that were stringent and tried to hold on to the the deals of the past that found themselves kicked off to the curb.
CHIP: Right. Yeah, I mean, you’ve made an excellent point there, which is you need to know your clients, you need to know them. You need to know what their needs are. But you also need to know them personally. Yeah, to really get to understand what’s making them operate as a business, but what makes them tick as a person. And yeah, and and work with them on those things. I mean, I I ran a business that you know, through September 11 and through 2008. So I’ve been through two of these before and you know, I can tell you that that the business has changed in both cases, they were substantial changes that took place, but in each case the business came out better and stronger. Because what it really did was accelerated changes that probably should have been taking place anyway.
CARL: And okay, I will hug you right now are saying that this is the opportunity to accelerate those changes. And, you know, for some of us who are tinkerers at heart, but don’t really know what will or won’t work. You know what, this is your glorious day to try those things. Again, not being insensitive to the situation. If anything is possible, right now it’s change. So take the opportunity to rethink what you offer to rethink how you offer it, to rethink how you put messaging around it. And you know, even bring your clients into that because they’re sitting at home lonely too. Right? Right. And ask them what would you say we should do? How do you feel we should be even if they can’t work with you right now? Bring them into who you are. And they’ll remember that
CHIP: Yeah, you’ve got to be having conversations I mean, the the other mistake I’m seeing some agencies do is to back off totally on business development cuz nobody wants to hear about this right now. Know that look, date a lot of folks have done now. I mean, don’t call people who were laid off or furloughed or And try to cut but see how you can help them perhaps don’t ask the business, but have these conversations because you will learn so much. This is an opportunity for growth for learning for experimentation. And if you look at it that way, you’re going to come out much stronger whenever this ends.
CARL: Yeah, I totally agree. And I would say you just you do have to be sensitive in the way that you do that mapping especially. It needs to be somebody that you know something that’s warm because anything cold right now is freezing.
CHIP: Right? It’s it’s just not doesn’t work anyway, cold now pointless. There is horrible on them up. So
CARL: yeah, I totally agree. You know, one other thing I know, we’re probably getting close on time here. But in terms of your teams, I think one really important thing is to make sure that you deliver bad news with the same acceleration and frequency and tone that you do good news. And I’ve heard Nancy Lyons say that from clockwork and some other people I don’t know who said it first, but it’s always really smart, successful people. So If you’re going to try to get through this as a team, talk with the team about how you can get through this together, if you have to make a really hard decision at a difficult time, make sure you say it like you would have said winning a new piece of business not with a smile on your face but making sure that you don’t hold back like the same amount of content do everything like that. So people will remember that I am to your point ship clients will remember former people on the team remember if it comes to that, or if you all come through it together which which happened to me once at my my shop, we we all agreed to take a cut, and then we would bring it back when the work came back. And luckily it only took a few weeks that we landed something we didn’t expect but the team had so much faith and love for each other after that, that again, it’s an opportunity to come together and come out just so much stronger on the other side.
CHIP: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. You really need to be transparent with your team tell them what you know when it’s good. Tell them what you know when it’s bad. And tell them when you don’t know. You know, there’s no shame in saying I’m not sure You know, you don’t have to have an answer for everything, but just you know, be open, be honest, that’s that’s going to help you out a whole lot in these kinds of situations. So, well, I know you’ve been putting together a lot of resources at the bureau digital for agencies, where can people find you online? Where can they find these resources?
CARL: Yeah, so Bureau is a really hard word to spell. So I apologize for that. But if you go to bureau of digital comm, if you go to the blog, you’re gonna find a post called covert 19. It’s the resource roundup covert 19 edition. Every month, we’re posting resources that community talks about community likes, and so rather than try to create new content, we just reached out to the community and said, what’s the best content you’re finding because like we mentioned before, there’s a lot of bad content out there right now. So that host alone I feel really excited about so go to the website, check out the podcasts. We are totally redoing the events section. So hang tight on that till next time. Because we’re not going to be getting together in all these glorious places, but we’re going to be getting together in a glorious way.
CHIP: Great. Well, I really appreciate your time today, Carl, this has been a great conversation. Hopefully it’s given folks some good ideas for their own businesses and, and if nothing else, it’s it’s giving them the courage to be creative and make the changes that are probably needed going forward. So
CARL: thank you, Chip.
CHIP: My guest today has been Carl Smith with the Bureau of digital