Just about every agency leader worries about where the next new client will come from and how to land that new business. Many aren’t natural-born salespeople, so the process itself can be uncomfortable and even intimidating.
Jody Sutter brings decades of experience in agency business development to help owners and executives put in place programs and processes that generate revenue. In this episode of the Chats with Chip podcast, Jody shares some of the most common mistakes she sees agencies make and offers practical solutions listeners can implement in their own businesses.
- Jody: “It’s the CEO that should be primarily responsible for business development.”
- Jody: “One of the biggest mistakes that I see is … I see an agency trying to either do too much, or nothing at all.”
- Chip: “You get consistency by building on top of processes.”
- Jody: “I try to keep [clients] from getting distracted by all the other things they could be doing, and focus on the one or two things that they’re really best suited to do.”
- Jody: “When it comes to business development … there has to be a bit of ruthlessness. And I say that in the best sense of the term, but some self interest in business development and the ability to say no, as needed, and also to retain control over the pitch process and not give the give the entire control to the client, which I see all the time.”
- The Sutter Company
- The New Business Ecosystem worksheet
- Jody on LinkedIn | Twitter
Jody Sutter is a business development coach with more than 25 years’ experience working with ad agencies and marketing firms. After leading business development for creative, media and digital agencies both big and small, she opened The Sutter Company to help agencies and other marketing services providers get better at pursuing the right kinds of clients in the right kinds of ways.
The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.
CHIP: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Agency Leadership Conversations, the Chats with Chip Podcast. I am your host, Chip Griffin. And my guest today is Jody Sutter. She is with the Sutter Company which she of course founded because, well, Sutter. Right, it makes sense. Welcome to the show, Jody.
JODY: thank you very much for having me, Chip.
CHIP: It is great to have you here. And why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and the Sutter company, before we dive into the topic of the day?
JODY: Sure. Well, I am a career business development professional. And I’ve been running my own business now for about six years prior to that I ran business development teams at large global agencies, as well as working for smaller firms were in those cases, I was really on the front lines, generating leads and taking business through the pipeline through to closing. So I’ve seen a lot of different kinds of business development. But all within the Creative Services Agency marketing services world, I started my business six years ago, cuz I saw a real need to work primarily with smaller agencies, a lot of those agencies that find it difficult to dedicate a node have one dedicated resource for business development. And a lot of times the responsibility falls to the CEO. And frankly, I think my feeling is that in those cases, it’s the CEO that should be primarily responsible for business development. Obviously, it’s not the only responsibility. So my business is really based around creating programs for these busy agency CEOs to have a growing, thriving new business practice for their small agency.
CHIP: Excellent. Well, I know that, you know, growing the business is something that every agency owner is particularly concerned about, they spend a lot of time thinking about it. But trying to make sure that they’ve got the the right processes in place that they’re taking the right approach to it is is really important. So obviously, that’s something that you have a great deal of expertise in.
JODY: I Well, I’ve been doing it for a long time. So hopefully, there’s a lot of expertise there. Yeah.
CHIP: Well, well, you know, I I’ve known you enough here, as we’ve gotten to know each other a bit that I know you do have that expertise. So why don’t we Why don’t we dive in then to talking about, you know, what are some of the mistakes that you see agency owners make? What are some of the things that they need to focus on in order to improve their business development efforts?
JODY: Yeah. You know, I think it’s that’s an interesting question. And it’s one that I get a lot. And of course, I think it’s because agencies are especially busy CEOs of small agencies, there’s, they’re always looking for that one quick answer that maybe they haven’t thought of yet, or past consultants that they’d worked with hadn’t told them about. And so unfortunately, there is no one quick answer. And unfortunately, there’s myriad small tactical mistakes that I see happening frequently. And I thought maybe I’d stay away from some of the tactical stuff and maybe talk about some of the bigger mistakes, or the bigger mistake and tendencies that I see that once you can recognize those maybe shift away from those, some of the smaller tactical mistakes will almost will self correct, at least I’ve seen that happen. You know, I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see is, and I’m going to sound like I contradict myself a little bit, but I see an agency trying to either do too much, or nothing at all. And sometimes that’s, you can’t obviously can’t do both of those things at the same time. But you can do them in sequence. So sky can see and HIC and agencies that try to do too much, then maybe they’ll start the year off thinking we’ve gotta get our business development chops, and we’ve been they start going out full force. And then they lose steam, and they don’t really have the systems or they don’t have clear goals, or they don’t know how to get to those goals. And then they lose some steam, and they get overwhelmed, or they get distracted, and then they don’t do anything until that vicious cycle comes back around again, and they want to do and then they realize that they have to do something and they try to do too much. Is that something you’ve seen?
CHIP: Yeah, absolutely. I you know, I think that the lack of consistency is one of the things that always get you and and the consistency, you get consistency by building it on top of processes, as you were talking about, if you have systems and processes, and something like that, that’s that’s how you can ensure consistency. I think that’s, that’s absolutely critical. And so often I see agency owners get super busy on the day to day, and they forget about focusing on business development until it’s too late. Or, or maybe they get frustrated by it. And they say, Oh, you know, I need to take a break. And I’ll come back to it. And it’s that it’s you can’t succeed without consistency.
JODY: And really interrupt you really focus on systems and processes and of all kinds for agencies. Right?
CHIP: Yeah, I’m big on processes, whether that’s, you know, financial client service, business development, I think it’s if you want to build a scalable business, and you want to have an agency that can, you know, grow beyond just just the owner and a small group of people right around them, you really need to have that in place in order to be successful.
JODY: So I have a question for you. Because one of the things that I do with with my clients is, I will often say, you know, let’s, let’s pick one thing, or two things, and let’s focus on those. And I have a way of figuring out what those one or two things should be. But I always think, you know, I try to keep them from getting distracted by all the other things they could be doing, and focus on the one or two things that they’re really best suited to do. Get some of the system processes and systems established for those thing, those tactics, get the my agency feeling comfortable and in practice, and then we can move on from there. Is that different approach that you take?
CHIP: Yeah, I mean, so I like to start with trying to figure out how people are allocating their time currently. And that’s not just the owner, but it’s the employees, you know, where are you spending your time, because you typically want to try to systematized the things where you’re putting the most resources into because that helps you get the biggest efficiency in improvements in the shortest period of time. And if you can see those quick wins, that’s what causes people to say, Yes, okay, I’ll keep building and building on the systems. Whereas if you come up with some obscure process out of the gate, that they’re not going to use day in and day out, they get frustrated.
JODY: Yeah, I often match that as well, with fair I call it their new business personality. And I developed for or if it’s a little fluid, but essentially, I’ve narrowed it down to what I call the four new business personalities. And it depending on where that CEO falls in that range of personalities, and those personalities are the, the sales, the the hunter, or, you know, the natural born salesperson, the hunter, the communicator, the promoter, and the thinker. And all of those types have different styles, and they have different strengths. So what I often try to do is steer my clients away from the types of they’re not or the tactics that are better suited for one versus the other. So you know, the thinker is a classic introvert doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not bad at that they’re not good at networking or building relationships, they just do it in a different way. So I try to prescribe tactics that are going to be better for them that way, and processes. So I sort of think like, what Yeah, what’s I think your idea, the Quick, quick win is so important. But also which, what, then how do we marry that with their natural strengths and tendencies? So that they feel like, Oh, yeah, I can do this, this is not a mystery.
CHIP: Right? I think that’s a really good idea to be, you know, zeroing in on what it is that they do well, and say, Okay, do more of that. Because that, that people are gonna be more comfortable doing it. And again, they will see that quick success. And I and in whatever form of consulting it is, whether it’s what we do working with the agencies themselves, or the agencies working with their own clients, you want to have those quick wins, because that builds momentum, and it solidifies the relationship and demonstrates the experts expertise, if you will, yeah,
JODY: absolutely. Yeah. So I suppose that’s one of the really big things. The other things that I tend to see with agencies is where, you know, we, we being you referring to agencies, or people in the agency world in general, we’re so we’re so service oriented, we’re so client service oriented. And I think when it comes to business development, it that can actually be a bit of a mistake, I think there has to be a bit of ruthlessness. And I say that in the best sense of the term, but some self interest in business development and the ability to say no, as needed, and also to retain control over the pitch process and not give the give the entire control to the client, which I see all the time. Maybe you do too.
CHIP: Yeah. Could Can we see around on the say no, because I that that, I think that is so important when it comes to business development, because in my opinion, variance agency owners just that they want to have as many conversations as possible, they want to pitch as often as possible. They want to respond to every RFP. And but really the key to success is is knowing when to say no,
JODY: yeah, yeah. And so what I do with my clients is we develop very strict selection criteria. And I, you know, I hold them to it. Ultimately, it’s their choice. But that’s how I see one of my roles is to keep them honest. And push them to, you know, push them when they start to, to, they start to veer toward saying yes to a project, they really shouldn’t, or to an assignment, they really shouldn’t. Going back to those selection criteria. Why do we choose those? And why were those important? And it also goes back to even bigger things? Like, if it’s not the right, why isn’t it the right type of assignment? Is it that we just got we just landed on kind of a sucky client? Or is it because we’re picking the wrong types of clients and the wrong types of business, as I think can be very revealing of much bigger issues? Like what are you selling? and who you’re selling it to? Why,
CHIP: right? When and so many agencies want to go for the big fish? Yeah, it’s always more exciting to look at the the big deals, whether that’s, you know, whether your agency view six figures or seven figures is the big deal, or, you know, maybe even high five, it doesn’t matter what it is, but you’re always looking for those big ones, and you tend to over commit your resources. Yes. To those even when they may not be the right fit for your business.
JODY: Yeah, it’s so it can be it’s really difficult to look at that bought that number on the budget of the client, if you’re lucky, the client puts in the RFP and and have your concerns about it being the wrong type of fit for you override the desire for that amount of money.
CHIP: yeah, how do you work with the the agencies to come up with their guidelines and their their rules? What What is your process for helping them figure out? Okay, these are the folks I should work with? And these are the folks I shouldn’t work with?
JODY: Yeah, well, it goes, a lot of it goes back to it always goes back to the the What are you selling? And who are you selling it to this their strategic position of where, where they offer the most value, what their services are, and where they offer the most value? And who are they best suited to, to deliver that to. So that is nothing terribly original. I think most people who do what I do, whether it’s for agencies, or even with what my clients do for their clients, it really comes comes back to that. And I think once you have the those gigantic benchmarks to go back to, then it becomes easier to start to eliminate, or it becomes easier to set up that criteria. So usually, I will not try to, to develop a strict group of selection criteria with a client until we’ve answered those basic questions. Now, of course we can, we can get maybe some other tactical criteria in place, like size of the project, or duration, or characteristics of the client that we want to see. But really have to know what your overall goals are. And for that, you really have to know clearly what you’re selling who you’re selling it to.
CHIP: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think knowing your identity is is absolutely critical. One of the things that I do with agencies is I use what I call the aim get framework, and the A and the IRA ambition and identity, because to me, those are the most important things to setting the guidelines. In other words, you know, what is your own ambition as the agency owner? What do you want to achieve out of this business? Because you can’t answer that question well, that you’re not going to make your business decisions appropriately. But the identity then that that shapes everything, and, and it has to be an identity that works from a business standpoint, but it also has to be something that you and your team enjoy working on. Too often. I’ve seen folks say, well, there’s a real market opportunity in whatever mean, these days, it’s cannabis. Right. You know, everybody wants to be in cannabis. Yeah. You know, which is great, you know, you want to go chasing the money, but at the same time, you know, is that is that the work you want to be doing? are you passionate about it, you’re gonna enjoy it, because there’s no sense in being in an agency and doing work in sectors that just don’t interest you.
JODY: Yeah, I completely agree. And it’s also I could, you know, I could also see that working for an agency that is really committed to health care, especially alternative health care. But if they are an agency that is really great at doing online marketing for financial services, companies, and insurance and other b2b then yeah, cannabis just doesn’t make sense, to me, at least. And I think that they’re going to end up chasing after things that don’t, don’t, that don’t end up building on their foundation.
CHIP: Right? Well, it’s also, you know, particularly when you’re looking at a new space like that, it requires careful thought as to, you know, what are the what are the particular challenges of getting into it? And I think, you know, cannabis is probably fraught with more than just about anything else, which is, which is why it always surprises me the number of agencies that are trying to pursue that space, because it’s still a very murky area from a regulatory standpoint, and there are a lot of challenges, whether you’re doing digital work and trying to navigate you know, what Facebook doesn’t doesn’t allow, or, or the, the banking rules. And, you know, what do you have to set up affiliates in the states where it’s legal in order to do the marketing? I mean, there’s just there’s so many challenges that, that I think a lot of agencies don’t think about whether it’s bad or or any other Gold Rush type industry.
JODY: Well, the other thing that I think that agencies made up, think about, so I think what you touched upon there, too, is that some sort of either basic or deep, ideally deeper, but some sort of basic knowledge of the clients sector of the clients category. And I always, so one of the things I’ve been focusing a lot on with my clients is this idea of the pitch being the ultimate way for the client to reduce the risk of hiring a new agency. And so it’s something like cannabis, the businesses in that category have all these concerns. And those concerns are going to be projected onto their agency. And it’s going to be risky to hire an agency that the doesn’t understand what those concerns are, how to address them. And so that’s one of the ways I usually dissuade my clients from going after things that they’re just really not that suited to do is that I, I try to show that they may not be as well equipped to reduce the risk for their clients as maybe another agency would if it’s a category that they don’t know.
CHIP: And if you look at the different personality types that you are identifying earlier, how does that fit into how they approach it? So not just their day to day, you know, how they’re actually interacting? But does it? Does it affect how they look at a big picture? Are there other hunters? Do they devote more resources to it? versus say, the thinkers? Or is there not really a correlation there? That’s really more just a style in which they approach it?
JODY: Oh, no, I think that there’s a multitude referring to like specific pitches or just in general,
CHIP: in just in general, so is a hunter more likely to devote more of their resources, I would imagine their time to doing business to development, whereas a thinker, maybe you have to drag them along. You know, I’m curious what you’ve seen from those personalities, that you can extrapolate beyond just how they do their business development.
JODY: You know, my, my ideal client avatar is actually based on a real client, one of the first agencies that I actually it was the first client that I had, and he’s still a client. And I think he’s a natural born hunter and I, the way I described natural born hunters is that they are people who can pick up the phone, because actually still believe in making phone calls, pick up the phone or interact with someone personally, in a, in a natural and comfortable way. Having not known them with a with a perfect stranger, they’re able to find a level of, of what’s the right word, I’m totally blanking on the word, but a level of communist commonality, that allows them to build that relationship. And they’re kind of unafraid to do that. For us, I think some of the other some of the other personalities, I really don’t like that feeling of being so exposed. What I find, though, is hunters also they tend to have a bit more of a natural sales mentality, or maybe it’s a developed sales mentality, but they have a certain respect for the sales process. So they’re going to be better equipped, as you know, a classic outbound program, they’re going to be better equipped at understanding why you know, the following through is so important, why tracking your data around these prospects is so important. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to be the ones who are best at tracking that like my, the one client who is my ideal, my ideal natural born salesperson natural born Hunter. He’s not always terribly detail oriented. And so there, it’s really important that he’s got someone on his team, who can take care of all that for him, so that the details are being taken care of. And he’s being teed up to make the calls or go to the meetings or go to the networking events, and then come back with the leads. And so that’s how he excels.
CHIP: Right? Well, I think that’s smart, you know, if you if you take what you’re good at, and do more of it, as you were talking about earlier, and if you figure out what you’re not good at and find a way to address that, whether that’s through some on your team, or contracting or consulting, or some system or whatever to, to make up for those areas where you’re weaker, I think that’s how you get the most benefit.
JODY: It sounds so obvious, right?
CHIP: It does. And at the end of the day, I always say, you know, there’s no rocket science about being a consultant in any industry, except for maybe rocket science. And so, so really, you know, our job is primarily to point out the obvious because when you’re in the middle of something, you have the blinders on, you don’t see it, maybe you think you’re doing it, and you’re and you’re not, you know, maybe you’re just not doing enough of it. And and so as a consultant, you know, we can step back and say, hold on, slow down, take a look at this. And more often than not, I’m not telling a client what to do, I’m simply leading them to the conclusion themselves, and they’ll still stick with it a lot better that way to, you know, it’s like my kids, if I tell my kids, you must do this, guess what, they’re probably not going to do whatever that is, they’re going to fight back. Yeah. But but but but if I sort of, if I if I paint the picture for them and guide them, and they think it’s their own decision. They love it.
JODY: Yeah. I think there’s also this notion of I think, in general, there’s, there’s a lot of fear around business development. And so for, you know, to go back to the personalities for someone who’s a communicator, and the way I described, the communicator is there, your Ted talker, they’re the ones who are very comfortable, in a room full of people, they tend to be exceedingly good at taking complex ideas and turning it into simple, simple, simple thing complex information and turning it into simple ideas. So everyone can understand it. They also aren’t terribly good with the details. And they also aren’t, they’re not necessarily that great with one on one interaction. Sometimes, because there’s a little bit of arrogance, because they are so good in front of crowds. It’s, it’s like this. So there’s like, it’s there’s like you have to work with the both the good sides of the personality, as well as maybe some of the things that aren’t, aren’t as some of the bad sides. So. So for a communicator, an obvious strategy there and obviously, of tactics would be to build a speaker campaign to come up with thought leadership that you can turn into a great speaker strategy, and then get them out on the circuit. And then the way you support them is, you get someone sometimes I’ve seen it where someone sort of follows them around, and again, collects the lead does the follow up and turns those leads into real opportunities. But But I think that a lot of the times that I work with agency CEOs, there’s sort of this sense of like, Oh, you mean, I don’t need to make cold calls? Well, not all the time. You know, if you’re particularly well suited to that, then you should, but if it’s something if you’d rather like you know, draw your own fingernails out, then make a cold call. And let’s figure out what else you’re good at. And, and have you do things that you are good at,
CHIP: right? Well, in these days, there’s there’s really not much excuse for doing pure cold calls that they should always be lukewarm. Absolutely, there’s so many ways that you can reach out and learn about people touch them a little bit in advance that, you know, a pure cold call campaign doesn’t make it.
JODY: Right, I don’t think cold calls really exist. But when I refer to,
CHIP: they still exist, trust me I, in fact, in fact, when we started recording, I got a message from someone who clearly has absolutely no earthly idea what I do, and we just was working off a list. And it’s I think it’s not I don’t understand why anybody would do that today.
JODY: Or I don’t know if this going off in too much of a tangent, but when you get the so I love LinkedIn for networking, and I am a big advocate for it for my clients as well. But I, I’m starting to really dislike how people are starting to sell themselves on LinkedIn, because I will get things like I see that you are a small agency owner, blah, blah, blah, and I’m well I’m not I work with small agency owners, but you’ve completely misrepresented what I do, and delete. And I think that actually is kind of the curse of automation. Sadly,
CHIP: it is and LinkedIn, it actually is pretty good about walking automation, generally, but there are people who get around it through, you know, the the semi human automation or, you know, various scraping techniques. And so it really is it’s just atrocious. And and I listened to these folks out there talking about, you know, their LinkedIn selling campaigns and like, that’s, you’re not really doing that. You’re just you’re just, you know, turning this into spam. And and that doesn’t make any sense at all. Unfortunately, it does work from time to time, which is why they do it.
JODY: Yeah. Well, every now and then you also hit the bullseye on when you’re playing darts. Right?
CHIP: Right. Well, I don’t but I’m sure I’m sure somebody is. You know, it’s like golf. You know, I never get the ball about more than three feet from the tee. So I had to, unfortunately, stop playing golf. My business partner at the time got very upset that I kept hitting him with the ball. Well, no,
JODY: I don’t think other people use that as an excuse as an excuse to stop playing golf. So
CHIP: true. Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe I maybe I was just weak. But so you were creeping up on the end of our time. But one of the things that struck me that I’m curious what your take on is, you know, a lot of the agencies I talked to say, when I asked them how they get new business, they say referrals and referrals seems to be the universal approach to new business for agencies. Yet, when you dig a lot of them, it’s not it’s not as simple as that sounds. But I’m curious, you know, is your experience that most agencies when you come work with them are telling you that referrals that our main source of business? And and if so, how do you convince them that they need to actually be doing something more concrete?
JODY: Yeah, well, sometimes it’s they wouldn’t call it this, but they’d act, it would be more like just dumb luck. Yeah. So I actually, I think there are a lot of people out there who harp on this idea that agencies have got to get off of like, they can’t just use referrals, and they got to do something more. So I know, I don’t think you can over rely on referrals. But what I see I actually see a lot, a lot of my clients aren’t doing enough with their existing network, they don’t actually they think they could use a much better, more formal referral system in place. And they’re sitting on this incredibly valuable asset, which is their informal, usually, it’s very informal database of past clients, and friends and colleagues, and they’re not using it. So I’d say until you feel like you are until Yeah, I mean, I had that conversation with a client just this morning, anyway. But yet until you feel like you have completely exhausted your referral network, then there’s room for for all strategy.
CHIP: And chances are, if you own an agency, you haven’t exhausted it yet. Because chances are over the years that you’ve been working, you’ve developed a huge network, you just may have, you may not have nurtured it well enough. And so when you can, you can go back and bring back a contact you haven’t talked to in a decade or more, I found that any number of times, and I’m I’m always shocked at how quickly you can fall back into the groove with someone. And you see, you need to be doing that. And and I think it goes back to what you talked about at the very start of this conversation, which is systems and processes, goals, consistency. And if you’re doing that, then referrals are actually not a bad way of growing your business. It’s just you know, usually when people say referrals, they do mean, you know, just whatever comes in over the transom or as you put it dumb luck. And and so if you’re if you’ve got structure around referrals, that can be a fantastic Business Development Program.
JODY: Yeah, I taught I completely agree. I also think, you know, with referrals to it’s just like, I want to make sure I don’t lose my thoughts. I think so like Fumarate. I thought it was something that you just said about the ability to Can Can you continue to go back because the also your business is evolving. So you have someone you haven’t contacted? And five to 10 years? and yet they’re your businesses evolved a lot? I think there’s a sense of like, well, we have nothing new to say. I think there’s always something new to say the other thing, too, is I think that agencies don’t ask. So I think one of the things that makes referral a referral strategy work is when you can go to a a supporter, whether that’s a former client, or a colleague, or an ex employee, or a neighbor and say, Here’s where my focus is my focus for the next year is going to be doing this kind of work like this making this kind of a difference for these types of clients. Do you know of anyone who could use this help? I think that’s a crucial thing that ask. And I think there are multiple benefits. One, it tells the person what you want them to do for you. And to it makes them realize like, Oh, this there’s that I can have a play a role in this situation by referring clients to them by referring people who need the service to them. Right?
CHIP: Yeah. And you’re right, you’ve absolutely got to ask, and you also have to make sure that people are seeing your name regularly, they know what you’re up to, because people forget, you know, I mean, not a day goes by really that someone doesn’t reach out to me and say, Hey, do you have, can you refer me to an agency that does X, Y, or Z. And inevitably, I think about whoever’s name I’ve talked to, most recently in that space. It’s just, it’s natural. And so you know, if I’ve got someone who’s sending me a weekly newsletter, I’m more likely to think of them than somebody who reaches out to me every 18 months. And, and so you need to you need to create those means to stay in front of your network, so that they remember you when the time is right. Because its business development is timing. Right? I mean, when it comes right down to it, it’s making, its making sure that that you are the person that they’re thinking of at the time that they need a particular service.
JODY: That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. I know, I wish I wish we could. I wish it didn’t ultimately come down to timing, timing, numbers. And I think, as you said, it’s all about getting the timing and the numbers more in your favor. And that’s a lot of what I do is to help try to figure that out. What can we do to put time and, and and, and the numbers into your in your favor.
CHIP: But we obviously could go on for quite a while on these topics. And so I’ll have to have you back so that we can dig deeper on some of these. But if someone is interested in learning more about what you do, and how you might be able to help them on their own agency business development process, where can they find out more about you
JODY: yet? Well, probably the easiest for them thing for them to do is to email me at Jody and that’s Jodi with a Y so JODY, at thesuttercompany. com, or they can visit my website at www dot the Sutter company.com. And I’m, you know, happy to talk to any agency and give a bit of a free consultation on what their issues are and whether I can help. And if I if I’m not the right person for them, I’m always happy to refer them to other companies or services that that might be better.
CHIP: Excellent. Well, this has been a great conversation, Jody, I’ll make sure to include those links in the show notes. So if you happen to be listening to this in the car, or while you’re out running around the treadmill or whatever, no need to crash will. We’ve got it all there for you Just visit the Show Notes for this episode. And you’ll be able to click right over to Jodi’s website. So, again, my guest today has been Jody Sutter with the Sutter Company. Thanks for joining me,